Im trying so hard but it just aint right!

[gutterpunk60]

Hey all,
First time on the forum so go easy on me, but I have been pulling my hair out and need your help!
Its a bit of a long story but basically I cant get the perfection I am wanting out of my brews with similar 'off' flavours in each batch.
BTW all recipes have been all grain using the same 25kg bag of Maris Otter plus other various grains depending on recipe

1st Batch - Smoked Porter - my first go, ended up with a fairly low ABV, used White Labs yeast and generally fairly pleasant

2nd Batch - Pale Ale - changed to Safale yeast and once matured was where I first noticed my 'off' flavours, slightly dusty after taste

3rd Batch - More or less followed as above but decided to change mashing in length and boil, moved on to glass bottles, after maturation more or less same taste as above

4th Batch - Same style but changed recipe, added less dark malt as I thought this may be affecting the taste, also moved onto bottled water on assumption of London pH levels, created a yeast starter. This time after a good 3 months maturation following all the correct protocol I cracked one open today and that same unconvincing homebrew taste, this time even boarding on a little sour.

Anyway I have built my kit up on an almost obsessive level with Erlermeyer Flasks and Turkey basters getting on my wifes nerves. Am sure I am cleaning properly, the one consistent thing on all brews is there has never been bubbling during fermentation but a big bulge in the fermenter and the gravities have always followed what they were supposed to do.

I change my recipes everytime to try pin point the problem and all I can think of left is:

Maybe I should by some new Maris Otter (like I say the beer tastes kind of 'dusty' but the malt does not appear to be moldy by any means)

Change to a different yeast (but EVERYONE uses US04 right?)

Start experimenting in chemical treatment of the water

So in conclusion! The beers look fine, generally follow protocol, but have a funny 'dusty' taste.
And after checking most off flavour definitions I cant pin point it to one the usual culprits (DMS, skunky etc)

Sorry for the long post and thanks for reading!

 

[dennisking]

Hi and welcome, wow there is a lot there. Unlikely to be the malt as for yeast you say the first whitelabs was OK?
As for the dried yeast no reason that should be a problem. Without knowing exactly what is wrong taste wise it hard to diagnose and even then there might be several reasons. What temperature are you fermenting at, is there temperature control. Water treatment will certainly give you some degree of fine tuning, are you taking a PH reading. I'm sure we can help between the minds on here.

 

[joe1002]

One thing you haven't mentioned it fermentation. What's your process and what temperature do you ferment at?

What temperature do you mash and sparge at?

 

[Jimmy321]

If it's tasting 'skunky' is it in a place where it could be reached by UV light or being stored in clear bottles that will be more prone to skunky flavors even will a little UV light.

 

[pittsy]

'Dusty' you say , well that makes me think is it yeast however changing yeast should of solved that if it was it . Then as above is it uv light , do you leave the fv where the sun (yes that thing behind them clouds , i think it is yellow) gets at it . But i think mostly it would be down to water , you need to take a ph test of the mash , not of the water before mashing . What colour of beers are brewed locally ? by me it's mild and bitter and guess what ,my water needs treatment for lagers etc but great for dark beer . This is a good sign for you to know what types of beers you are probably better of brewing without water treatment .
Also maybe try brewing a hefeweizen , they are good in hard/soft water .
i think you should give as much detail about your full mashing/fermenting with temps etc where your brew sits etc :hmm:

 

[zgoda]

"Dusty" as you describe it might come of oxidation. But most common source of "off-flavours" is infection.

 

[bunkerbrewer]

4th Batch - Same style but changed recipe, added less dark malt as I thought this may be affecting the taste, also moved onto bottled water on assumption of London pH levels, created a yeast starter. This time after a good 3 months maturation following all the correct protocol I cracked one open today and that same unconvincing homebrew taste, this time even boarding on a little sour.

dennisking mentions water treatment - I've got to agree. I'm a London brewer and my stouts and dark ales were turning out great, but I couldn't brew a decent pale ale until I started treating my water. It's mainly down to mash ph, so it's easily sorted with a bit of CRS once you know your water composition.

IMO just swapping to bottled water won't help, as that has all sorts of minerals added.

For me the off flavour was astringent - an unpleasant bitterness like over-steeped tea. Does that sounds like the "dusty" / "sour" taste you're getting?

 

[evanvine]

As has been mentioned, "infections" do cause "off" flavours!
More commonly though these flavours can be caused by "not quite clean" equipment.
Don't be afraid to use bleach or "beer line" cleaner, just remember to rinse well.

 

[morethanworts]

I change my recipes everytime to try pin point the problem

Maybe it would be more scientific to keep as many things consistent as possible, sticking to a proven recipe and method. I'd guess it's only worth tweaking things in the recipe once you're totally sure it's not something else in the process causing off-tastes.

Have you ever done extract brewing and, if so, did you get consistent results?

 

[BIGJIM72]

You mention a fairly low ABV, then off flavours. Could this be a problem with your mashing (maybe too low a temp) then over sparging? Again without more detail hard to pinpoint. Whereabouts in London are you? If you are local maybe I could help (in SE3)

 

[JKaranka]

I used to have a slight sweet twang. My brews started coming out dryer when I started using a tad of yeast nutrient (plus they ferment faster).

 

[wilsoa1111]

well to add my two cents- must be a good amount of pocket change here by now :lol -

it might just be the yeast- some people find s-04 unpleasant, try a v clean neutral yeast like s-05 or i believe windsor if treated well is v clean (they are harder to clear if in a hurry unless finings are used)-

or following pittsys brew a hefe- this basic style while changing some variables eliminates many, water, grain and hops are non issues and the yeast is completely changed (mauribrew weiss is the best dry sub imho) - if u get a low eff its probably the water, if it has no banana and unpleasantly odd- clovelike its the temp way too low (high is a strong contender as just emphasises yeasts tastes) etc but it should taste v nice regardless (unless really too cold)

Ps my german flatmate really dislikes the english yeasts and hops - he reckons too english/fruity- but i would say dusty might be how one could interpret these (i think breadyish) he only drinks my european clones atm/hefes thats how much english yeasts offend his palate lol

 

[mmaguy41]

you mentioned dms but thats normally a buttery or popcorn taste if im correct, just to be sure though do you boil with the lid off? And whats your chilling method?

 

[dogchillibilly]

As above .. Dust sounds cardboardy to me... That's oxidation .... How do you bottle?

 

[RobWalker]

odd question...you are using vacuum packed hops and not the dry loose ones you get in a big barrel at the back of the shop are you?

 

[gutterpunk60]

First things first, thank you all so much for your replies!
Secondly I responded two days ago but like a bloody plum I hot preview rather than submit, DOH!
Anyway Im gonna write it all again in response to your queries.

* I used Whitelabs yeast on my first batch then Safale on the subsequent, I figured the ABV was low due to it travelling in the post during the summer, but also as it was a porter it could of disguised the off flavours I have described.

* I mashed my last brew at 65 degrees at it was a high strength IPA but usually do it higher, I follow recipes word for word as I am still a novice. For temperature control I use a modified cool box and over the mash period I get very little drop off.

* After changing to bottled water on my last batch I did do a mash pH test, it was a little low but notwhat I would of thought was dramatic (perhaps 1.5 low?) - anyway I have no idea about treating water, what would you guys suggest as being a good additive as there are so many out there.

* My brew process is pretty simple, mash in for maybe 60-90 minutes, sparge pouring heated water over a collender to stop to much tannin movement. Boil for 60 minutes, cool to 24-27 degrees with a copper coil, whisk the hell out of it to get 4 inch of trub and then add my yeast starter.

* The room I ferment in is basically my laundry, its dark 99% of the time and temperature wise its just typical house temperature, maybe a little cold. Also the dryer is in there so it can fluctuate from time to time but nothing I would of thought that would cause alarm bells.

* Im particularly careful about oxidisation, I think?

* the taste is so hard to describe, over steeped tea I suppose could be a comparision I dont really know, the beer itself isnt awful and I suspect I am massively critical. I dont find I ever have that could hop punch even thou they are being added, they are porbably a little over malty but not in a good way (dusty?) - maybe someone here would like to try a bottle and I could send out for opinion?

* I do boil with the lid off (to be honest I didnt on the first two) and now I would describe the flavour on my new brews is a little sour, almost brettanomyces weirdly enough but that same dusty undertone.

* Im thinking I should just brew porters and stouts and be done with these damn pales, my wife hates dark beer so more for me eh?! :clap:

 

[RobWalker]

what about sanitizing? are you using vwp?

 

[wigwamheed]

you mentioned the flavour of overstewed tea, do you check the gravity of your runnings when you're sparging?

 

[bunkerbrewer]

After changing to bottled water on my last batch I did do a mash pH test, it was a little low but notwhat I would of thought was dramatic (perhaps 1.5 low?) - anyway I have no idea about treating water, what would you guys suggest as being a good additive as there are so many out there.

CRS and gypsum are all I need for London water. But, don't just chuck some in, that isn't water treatment :) What you need is the data to complete this form. Start here to get some of the data you need, and email Thames Water to get some of the rest (they were really helpful when I did this). They couldn't tell me alkalinity, though, so I bought a Salifert kH testing kit from eBay.

the taste is so hard to describe, over steeped tea I suppose could be a comparision I dont really know, the beer itself isnt awful and I suspect I am massively critical.

Yeah, I get like that too sometimes, it's the only way to get better. But then I remind myself I've got loads of tasty beer that I made myself :)

Im thinking I should just brew porters and stouts and be done with these damn pales, my wife hates dark beer so more for me eh?! :clap:

Maybe, but you've gotta brew a few SWMBO-pleasers for the next time a big box turns up at the door... :)

Lots of times I see people recommending simple pale ale recipes for beginners. I can see why, because the recipes are simple, but in my experience they're quite hard to get right. There's nowhere to hide...

 

[BIGJIM72]

Maybe start with a simple water treatment- 1 crushed campden tablet per 30lt of brewing water.

I am on pretty much the same supply as the Meantime brewery (don't think their brews go down too well for some- London's answer to J W Lees).

Through trial & error I have found APAs,SMASHs,stouts & milds work best for me with my water, and most dried yeasts are fine with the exceptions of 05 and lager yeasts which can produce some odd & funky flavours.

As with you, sometimes the hop punch is notable by its absence. I have yet to come up with a rational explanation as to why.