Im trying so hard but it just aint right!

[pittsy]

Maybe start with a simple water treatment- 1 crushed campden tablet per 30lt of brewing water.

I am on pretty much the same supply as the Meantime brewery (don't think their brews go down too well for some- London's answer to J W Lees).

Through trial & error I have found APAs,SMASHs,stouts & milds work best for me with my water, and most dried yeasts are fine with the exceptions of 05 and lager yeasts which can produce some odd & funky flavours.

As with you, sometimes the hop punch is notable by its absence. I have yet to come up with a rational explanation as to why.

your hop punch may be due to low sulfate to chloride ratio , i would also recommend getting a water report .

 

[IPA]

Hey all,
. the one consistent thing on all brews is there has never been bubbling during fermentation but a big bulge in the fermenter and the gravities have always followed what they were supposed to do.
quote]

A big bulge in the fermenter! Are you fermenting in a sealed container? If so therein lies you problem. In first stage of fermentation yeast needs oxygen and later it becomes anaerobic ie not needing it. As soon as fermentation is under way remove the lid and when it slows down replace it with an airlock. When the desired FG is reached transfer it to a second FV and leave it for a further 10-15 days and then bottle/barrel it. The proceedure for lager is slightly different but your recipes are all top fermenting. Hope this is of some help.

edited cause spelling of anaerobic

 

[BIGJIM72]

your hop punch may be due to low sulfate to chloride ratio , i would also recommend getting a water report .

My normal water treatment regime is 1 Campden tablet, a little epsom salts & a small amount of table salt.Apart from CRS any other suggestions?

 

[pittsy]

your hop punch may be due to low sulfate to chloride ratio , i would also recommend getting a water report .

My normal water treatment regime is 1 Campden tablet, a little epsom salts & a small amount of table salt.Apart from CRS any other suggestions?

i wouldn't add anythink until you know your water report , if like me they are no help at all (no calcium , alkalinity , hardness , carbonate etc listed) then get some test kits , calcium , magnesium (beware marine test kits are useless) and alkalinity test kit , but you will need your sulfate and chloride results too , this may be in a water report , you may even fine 1 online for your area .
I'm still learning but if your calcium is low that's easy to fix , if your calcium is too high then diluting your water may be best , your alkalinity can be reduced by crs but that (if sulfate based) will increase your sulfate and if you have diluted then your chloride may have a low ratio to the sulfate , 1-1= malty beer 1-2 (sulfate) = balanced , 1-3= bitter (for hoppy beers) , basically it's easier to correct to brew dark beers than to correct to brew light beers so diluting is often the way , but dilute too much and you have too low ions so you need a water report to get the correct ions otherwise you may be creating worse water by adding salts etc :hmm:

 

[BIGJIM72]

I have read my local water report-my additions were based upon what came out of the forum calculator! I don't know enough about chemistry to attempt much more than that. Some worrying trace elements though-lead,arsenic,benzene,e coli,colstridium perfringens and pesticides.The worrying thing is as drinking water it is classed as excellent!

 

[pittsy]

Jim , can you list your water results , calcium , magnesium , sulfate ,chloride, and alkalinity or carbonate or bicarbonate .

 

[BIGJIM72]

I have the report....

THAMES WATER UTILITIES
WATER QUALITY REPORT -2010 DATA WATER QUALITY REPORT -2010 DATA

Water Supply Zone SLE26 : KIDBROOKE Zone No. : 0084
Time Period: Concentration or value
(all samples)
No. of Samples
Parameter Units PCV Min Mean Max Total Contra-
vening
% of
samples
contravening
PCV
Data extracted on :04/03/2011
Population: 38,473
01/01/2010 to 31/12/2010
Coliform bacteria no/100ml 0 0 0 0 96 0 0
E. coli no/100ml 0 0 0 0 96 0 0
Enterococci no/100ml 0 0 0 0 8 0 0
Clostridium perfringens no/100ml 0 0 0 0 36 0 0
Colony count 22C no/ml -0 2.5 21 37 0 0
Colony count 37C no/ml -0 4.9 60 37 0 0
Residual Disinfectant mg/l -0.05 0.3 0.61 97 0 0
Colour (Pt/Co scale) mg/lPt/Co 20 < 0.5 1.4 3.8 36 0 0
Hydrogen Ion pH 6.5 to 9.5 7.2 7.6 8.1 36 0 0
Turbidity FTU 4 < 0.07 0.11 0.54 36 0 0
Conductivity at 20C uS/cm 2500 576 608 690 36 0 0
Ammonium as NH4 mg/l 0.5 0.05 0.075 0.13 36 0 0
Chloride as Cl mg/l 250 36 44.4 50 8 0 0
Sodium as Na mg/l 200 17.8 28.6 36.8 8 0 0
Sulphate as SO4 mg/l 250 46.2 49.6 53.7 8 0 0
Nitrate as NO3 mg/l 50 24.2 27.2 31.8 36 0 0
Nitrite as NO2 mg/l 0.5 0.01 0.038 0.14 36 0 0
Nitrate/Nitrite calculation mg/l 1 0.49 0.56 0.64 36 0 0
Total Organic Carbon as C mg/l -1.1 2.6 3.7 99 0 0
Total Hardness as CaCO3 mg/l -251 256 260 2 0 0
Odour (quantitative) dilution no. 0 0 0 0 18 0 0
Taste (quantitative) dilution no. 0 0 0 0 18 0 0
Iron as Fe ug/l 200 < 1 4.5 38.9 36 0 0
Manganese as Mn ug/l 50 < 0.7 1.4 3.2 36 0 0
Aluminium as Al ug/l 200 < 6.3 9.4 17 36 0 0
Antimony as Sb ug/l 5 < 0.2 0.28 0.5 8 0 0
Arsenic as As ug/l 10 < 0.3 0.8 1.2 8 0 0
Cadmium as Cd ug/l 5 < 0.2 < 0.2 < 0.2 8 0 0
Chromium as Cr ug/l 50 < 1.2 < 1.4 < 1.4 8 0 0
Copper as Cu mg/l 2 < 0.001 0.011 0.035 8 0 0
Lead as Pb ug/l 25 < 0.3 3.8 13.1 8 0 0
Mercury as Hg ug/l 1 < 0.12 < 0.12 < 0.12 97 0 0
Nickel as Ni ug/l 20 < 1.6 1.6 1.9 8 0 0
Fluoride as F mg/l 1.5 0.086 0.12 0.168 8 0 0
Selenium as Se ug/l 10 0.8 1.4 2.7 8 0 0
Boron as B mg/l 1 0.043 0.058 0.066 8 0 0
Bromate as BrO3 ug/l 10 < 0.2 0.67 5.1 98 0 0
Cyanide as CN ug/l 50 < 1 < 1.5 < 2 97 0 0
PAHs (sum of 4 substances) ug/l 0.1 0 0 0 8 0 0
Benzo (a) pyrene ug/l 0.01 < 0.001 < 0.001 < 0.001 8 0 0
Trihalomethanes ug/l 100 1.7 13.2 21.1 8 0 0
Tetra-& Trichloroethene cal ug/l 10 0 0.64 2.1 8 0 0
Tetrachloromethane ug/l 3 < 0.1 0.11 0.2 8 0 0
1,2 dichloroethane ug/l 3 < 0.1 < 0.1 < 0.1 8 0 0
Benzene ug/l 1 < 0.1 < 0.1 < 0.1 8 0 0
Atrazine ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 0.005 0.007 99 0 0
Bentazone ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 < 0.003 < 0.003 97 0 0
NOTE: PCV = Prescribed Concentration or Value Page 1


THAMES WATER UTILITIES
WATER QUALITY REPORT -2010 DATA WATER QUALITY REPORT -2010 DATA

Water Supply Zone SLE26 : KIDBROOKE Zone No. : 0084
Time Period: Concentration or value
(all samples)
No. of Samples
Parameter Units PCV Min Mean Max Total Contra-
vening
% of
samples
contravening
PCV
Data extracted on :04/03/2011
Population: 38,473
01/01/2010 to 31/12/2010
Bromoxynil ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.002 < 0.002 97 0 0
Carbetamide ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 0.009 0.034 99 0 0
Chlortoluron ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.005 < 0.008 99 0 0
Clopyralid ug/l 0.1 < 0.008 0.008 0.011 97 0 0
2,4-D ug/l 0.1 < 0.004 < 0.004 < 0.004 97 0 0
Dicamba ug/l 0.1 < 0.004 < 0.004 < 0.004 97 0 0
Dichlorprop ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 < 0.003 < 0.003 97 0 0
Diuron ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 0.005 0.008 99 0 0
Fluroxypyr ug/l 0.1 < 0.004 < 0.004 < 0.004 97 0 0
Isoproturon ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 0.003 0.006 99 0 0
Ioxynil ug/l 0.1 < 0.001 < 0.001 < 0.002 97 0 0
Linuron ug/l 0.1 < 0.004 < 0.011 < 0.017 99 0 0
Mecoprop ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 0.004 0.014 97 0 0
MCPA ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 0.002 0.006 97 0 0
MCPB ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.003 < 0.004 97 0 0
Pentachlorophenol ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.002 < 0.002 97 0 0
Propazine ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 < 0.005 < 0.007 99 0 0
Prometryn ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 < 0.008 < 0.013 99 0 0
Propyzamide ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 0.011 0.036 99 0 0
Simazine ug/l 0.1 0.003 0.005 0.009 99 0 0
2,3,6-TBA ug/l 0.1 < 0.004 < 0.004 < 0.004 97 0 0
2,4,5-T ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.002 < 0.002 97 0 0
Terbutryn ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.008 < 0.013 99 0 0
2,4-DB ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 0.002 0.003 97 0 0
Fenoprop ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.002 < 0.002 97 0 0
Monuron ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.003 < 0.004 99 0 0
Picloram ug/l 0.1 < 0.003 < 0.008 < 0.01 97 0 0
Triclopyr ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.002 < 0.003 97 0 0
Tebuthiuron ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.003 < 0.004 99 0 0
Ametryne ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 < 0.007 < 0.011 99 0 0
Carbendazim ug/l 0.1 < 0.001 < 0.008 < 0.015 99 0 0
Dichlobenil ug/l 0.1 < 0.001 0.001 0.002 97 0 0
Metazachlor ug/l 0.1 < 0.002 0.005 0.014 97 0 0
Metaldehyde ug/l 0.1 0.015 0.03 0.072 99 0 0
Total Pesticides ug/l 0.5 0 0.051 0.124 106 0 0
NOTE: PCV = Prescribed Concentration or Value Page 2


THAMES WATER UTILITIES
WATER QUALITY REPORT -2010 DATA

Zone No: 0084 WATER SUPPLY ZONE:SLE26 : KIDBROOKE
Population: 38,473 FOR PERIOD 01/01/2010 to 31/12/2010
Commentary on Water Quality :
Excellent quality water, no infringements to report.
NOTES :
1. For some parameters, monitoring occurs at the supplying W ater Treatment Works rather than the
Water Supply Zone. 2. Undertakings for metaldehyde (completion date: 31st March 2015) and
total pesticides (completion date: 31st March 2015) apply to this zone. Undertakings involve
measures to secure compliance with national standards for which infringements do not pose a risk
to health. These are accepted under Section 19 of the W ater Industry Act 1991.

NOTE: PCV = Prescribed Concentration or Value Page 3

 

[pittsy]

yeah jim , your is as useless as mine was , it give you an average of,
sodium 27mg/l which is the same as saying
sodium 27ppm ,
chloride 43ppm
sulphate 50ppm
but you need calcium , get a test kit you may have anywhere from 20ppm to 300ppm , mine is currently 90ppm.
you also need to work out the alkalinity again a test kit , mine is 8.3 dhk which translates to 147ppm and when using software you can work out your RESIDUAL ALKALINITY or RA which mine is high , too high for some beers.
you also need to know your magnesium , i got a test kit but its for marine water which means i have no way of knowing how little i have but i can work out i have less than 30ppm which is good but if i dilute without knowing how low this was to start with i might get too low which is bad for yeast .
I would recommend reading John Palmers water treatment (it's online).
By the way you mentioned having a low mash ph , how did you test this and did you do it at mash temp or at 20c and did you give it 15 mins at sacc temp before testing mash , also how low was it ? Also was it a dark beer or light , this afects mash ph too.

 

[BIGJIM72]

Thanks for all the info & work Pittsy-you are a real gent. I may well return at a future point to pick your brains some more. My water bill is due,so when I pay it I might ask then for some more detailed info (any expense spared!)

TBH my brews are good enough for me & those I inflict them on-it's just that elusive something,the difference between good & outstanding that I would like to achieve (as would we all).

Again thanks Pittsy (and to anyone else that has pointed me on the right path,if I have been remiss in thanks :whistle: )

The low mash Ph was another poster

 

[Down2die]

you mentioned dms but thats normally a buttery or popcorn taste if im correct, just to be sure though do you boil with the lid off? And whats your chilling method?

should one always boil with lid off? seem to get a better rolling boil with lid slightly ajar and knocking one of the elements off, this is on a 50 liter boil?

 

[mmaguy41]

As i understand yes you should boil with the lid off, i leave mine on until it gets up to temp then it stays off to let the nasties escape

 

[Robbo100]

+1 for boiling with the lid off. From what I have read, this is mandatory.

 

[gutterpunk60]

Hey all,
. the one consistent thing on all brews is there has never been bubbling during fermentation but a big bulge in the fermenter and the gravities have always followed what they were supposed to do.
quote]

A big bulge in the fermenter! Are you fermenting in a sealed container? If so therein lies you problem. In first stage of fermentation yeast needs oxygen and later it becomes anaerobic ie not needing it. As soon as fermentation is under way remove the lid and when it slows down replace it with an airlock. When the desired FG is reached transfer it to a second FV and leave it for a further 10-15 days and then bottle/barrel it. The proceedure for lager is slightly different but your recipes are all top fermenting. Hope this is of some help.

edited cause spelling of anaerobic

This is definately news to me, as soon as I pitch it straight into a plastic container with the lid on, isnt that what everyone else is doing?

Also attached is my water report so if anyone has any suggestions on addtitives that would be much appreciated!

Water Supply Zone: NLE13 Zone No.: 0013
Population: 95,236
Time Period: 01/01/2011 to 31/12/2011
Date extracted: 10/04/2012
Coliform bacteria no./100ml 0 0 0 0 240 0 0
E. coli no./100ml 0 0 0 0 240 0 0
Enterococci no./100ml 0 0 0 0 8 0 0
Clostridium perfringens no./100ml 0 0 0.001 1 805 1 0.1
Colony count 22ºC cfu/ml - 0 3 32 77 0 0
Colony count 37ºC cfu/ml - 0 2.69 33 77 0 0
Residual Disinfectant mg/l - 0.2 0.48 0.77 240 0 0
Colour (Pt/Co scale) mg/lPt/Co 20 0.7 1.296 2.9 76 0 0
Hydrogen Ion pH 6.5 to 9.5 7.5 7.8 8.3 76 0 0
Turbidity FTU 4 <0.070 0.08 0.2 76 0 0
Conductivity at 20ºC uS/cm 2500 595 637 725 76 0 0
Ammonium as NH4 mg/l 0.5 0.05 0.132 0.24 76 0 0
Chloride as Cl mg/l 250 49.5 57.1 64.0 9 0 0
Sodium as Na mg/l 200 33.8 39.8 47.1 8 0 0
Sulphate as SO4 mg/l 250 50.4 55.4 64.6 9 0 0
Nitrate as NO3 mg/l 50 21 27.134 43 76 0 0
Nitrite as NO2 mg/l 0.5 <0.010 0.03 0.12 76 0 0
Nitrate/Nitrite calculation mg/l 1 0.43 0.552 0.86 76 0 0
Total Organic Carbon as C mg/l - 1.7 2.318 3.1 84 0 0
Total Hardness as CaCO3 mg/l - 243 270 298 3 0 0
Odour (quantitative) dilution no. 0 0 0 0 38 0 0
Taste (quantitative) dilution no. 0 0 0 0 38 0 0
Iron as Fe µg/l 200 <1.000 2.6 48.8 76 0 0
Manganese as Mn µg/l 50 <0.700 <0.700 <0.700 76 0 0
Aluminium as Al µg/l 200 <6.300 10.2 16.3 76 0 0
Antimony as Sb µg/l 5 <0.500 0.525 0.7 8 0 0
Arsenic as As µg/l 10 1 1.25 1.5 8 0 0
Cadmium as Cd µg/l 5 <0.200 <0.200 <0.200 8 0 0
Chromium as Cr µg/l 50 <1.200 <1.200 <1.200 8 0 0
Copper as Cu mg/l 2 0.004 0.036 0.135 8 0 0
Lead as Pb µg/l 25 <0.300 1.538 4.3 8 0 0
Mercury as Hg µg/l 1 <0.120 0.123 0.34 84 0 0
Nickel as Ni µg/l 20 1.6 1.7 2 8 0 0
Fluoride as F mg/l 1.5 0.11 0.15 0.181 8 0 0
Selenium as Se µg/l 10 <0.800 0.98 1.5 8 0 0
Boron as B mg/l 1 0.06 0.07 0.08 8 0 0
Bromate as BrO3 µg/l 10 <0.200 0.827 2.9 84 0 0
Cyanide as CN µg/l 50 <1.000 1.01 1.4 84 0 0
PAHs (Sum of 4 substances) µg/l 0.1 0 0 0 8 0 0
Benzo (a) pyrene µg/l 0.01 <0.001 <0.001 <0.001 8 0 0
Trihalomethanes µg/l 100 17.7 20.7 24 8 0 0
Tetra- & Trichloroethene calc. µg/l 10 0 0 0 8 0 0
Tetrachloromethane µg/l 3 <0.100 <0.100 <0.100 8 0 0
1,2 dichloroethane µg/l 3 <0.100 <0.100 <0.100 8 0 0
Benzene µg/l 1 <0.100 <0.100 <0.100 8 0 0
Atrazine µg/l 0.1 <0.003 0.003 0.006 91 0 0
Bentazone µg/l 0.1 <0.003 <0.003 <0.008 87 0 0

 

[BIGJIM72]

Lid goes on,but loose fitting

 

[pittsy]

At Gutterpunk , water reports are often like mine and yours short on info , you need sodium , sulphate,chloride. calcium, alkalinity ,magnesium , you have an average for the first 3 but nothing for the last 3 but you can get test kits to find out , also your ideal water profile changes with what you are brewing so it would be impossible with info to correct .

 

[IPA]

[[/quote]This is definately news to me, as soon as I pitch it straight into a plastic container with the lid on, isnt that what everyone else is doing?[/quote]


Nobody ferments with a tight fitting lid. As I said just place the lid on without sealing it and when active fermentation is under way move it slightly to one side or if there is no danger of any thing falling in you can remove it completely. The CO2 generated will keep out any infection and then after 3-5 days you can snap the lid shut as long as it has an air lock fitted. Never mind about water treatments if you are trying to ferment in a tightly sealed container thats where your problems are. Get that right and worry about your water treatments later. If you want dead simple advice regarding water you should read Dave lines book Brewing Beers Like Those You Buy where he gives simple treatment advice for all types of water

 

[pittsy]

errm what about flies and such like , i wouldn't brew as said above , keep lid on but slightly sealed , if you push down you should get air/c02 rushing out but no flies can get in .

 

[morethanworts]

I don't get the logic of anything apart from a tight seal and airlock on the FV from the start.*

If it's agreed that there is a blanket of CO2 covering the wort, then what is the point of leaving the lid loose at all, as opposed to fitting it tight with an airlock from the start? How is it going to allow oxygen to the wort when there is a blanket of CO2 in the way?

Any oxygen intended for the yeast's use should just be stirred/aerated in before pitching, shouldn't it?


*I know the Theakstons brewery, for one, has open-top squares. I think the tour guide said the yeast head protects the beer, though how any flies or nasties sitting on it don't sink back in eventually, I don't know - maybe someone can help to explain!

 

[IPA]

If it's agreed that there is a blanket of CO2 covering the wort, then what is the point of leaving the lid loose at all, as opposed to fitting it tight with an airlock from the start? How is it going to allow oxygen to the wort when there is a blanket of CO2 in the way?
Any oxygen intended for the yeast's use should just be stirred/aerated in before pitching, shouldn't it ?]

The best way to see the difference is next time you ferment is to put the lid so that it only covers two thirds of the fermenter and you will see that the third that has more access to oxygen will have a head substantially bigger than the other two thirds. As I said when the vigorous ferment abates then put the lid and airlock in place. "Quad erat demonstrandum" (what was to be proved has been proved)

 

[morethanworts]

If it's agreed that there is a blanket of CO2 covering the wort, then what is the point of leaving the lid loose at all, as opposed to fitting it tight with an airlock from the start? How is it going to allow oxygen to the wort when there is a blanket of CO2 in the way?
Any oxygen intended for the yeast's use should just be stirred/aerated in before pitching, shouldn't it ?]

The best way to see the difference is next time you ferment is to put the lid so that it only covers two thirds of the fermenter and you will see that the third that has more access to oxygen will have a head substantially bigger than the other two thirds. As I said when the vigorous ferment abates then put the lid and airlock in place. "Quad erat demonstrandum" (what was to be proved has been proved)

If it works for you, that's great. As 'proof' though, I think your example may be subject to confounding variables

We can agree that putting a sealed lid on, without even an airlock or way of gas getting out, is clearly not good - if that is what the OP was doing!