Hydrogen Vs BEV cars.

[JockyBrewer]

Age is going to be more of a problem for EV batteries than mileage. I’ve seen enough reports of cars doing 200k miles inside 9 years without any issues.

 

[JockyBrewer]

Age is going to be more of a problem for EV batteries than mileage. I’ve seen enough reports of cars doing 200k miles inside 9 years without any issues.

Although having said that if batteries are warrantied to 8/10 years they should be engineered to be useful for at near double that as the warranty expiration should sit in the middle of a bathtub curve.

 

[Larse]

Although having said that if batteries are warrantied to 8/10 years they should be engineered to be useful for at near double that as the warranty expiration should sit in the middle of a bathtub curve.

That may depend on what the definition of "useful" is. There are many of the much-maligned Nissan Leafs driving around with 60 miles of range after 12 years. That range may still be useful to the person driving it if they do less than 60 miles a day.

 

[Nicks90]

That may depend on what the definition of "useful" is. There are many of the much-maligned Nissan Leafs driving around with 60 miles of range after 12 years. That range may still be useful to the person driving it if they do less than 60 miles a day.

And you think the battery tech used in a Leaf is similar to modern batteries and BMS in the current batch of EV's?
[Shakes head]
We are 15 years in to mainstream EV usage, look at the progress in technology and development of capabilities compared to a ford model T to an Austin 7 over a similar period at the start of ICE development

 

[Larse]

And you think the battery tech used in a Leaf is similar to modern batteries and BMS in the current batch of EV's?
[Shakes head]
We are 15 years in to mainstream EV usage, look at the progress in technology and development of capabilities compared to a ford model T to an Austin 7 over a similar period at the start of ICE development

I don't. No idea where you got that idea. I posted earlier about how poor their battery chemistry was.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Going back to hydrogen, one of the true believers is starting to have doubts (but produces more than twice as many cars as the entire car industry in Germany so it can afford to keep running a hydrogen R&D project for as long as it wants).

https://www.ft.com/content/69422656-7a25-4bc7-b626-1e69d4da953c
After selling just 27,500 hydrogen cars [since the Mirai launch in 2014]...“I can’t say for sure that it’s a bright future for hydrogen,” Hiroki Nakajima, chief technology officer at Toyota, told reporters at the Fuji Speedway racetrack in Japan in November....

“On all levels, hydrogen has been a failure for passenger cars,” said James Hong, head of Asia energy transition and commodities at Macquarie Capital. “Where we still haven’t got an answer yet is on commercial vehicle or stationary energy storage demand.”...

A hydrogen version of Toyota’s upmarket Crown car model costs ¥1mn ($6,500) more than one equipped with a new hybrid system.....

Hyundai made a loss of Won30mn ($22,000) on every unit of its flagship hydrogen Nexo SUV, despite receiving Won36mn in government subsidies on each vehicle....

A lack of fuelling infrastructure in Japan and abroad remains an issue. Oil major Shell announced last February that it would shut all of its hydrogen refuelling stations in California, the state where fuel cells are most popular in the US. In response, Mirai owners filed a class-action lawsuit against the company in July for misleading them on the availability of hydrogen fuel....

Despite the setbacks, Toyota insiders said they had not given up on hydrogen for passenger cars, with Toyoda discussing a partnership last October with his counterpart at traditional rival Hyundai to advance fuel cell vehicles.

Meanwhile, Toyota are spending $13.9bn on a new battery factory in the US. Follow the money...

 

[MashBag]

They should have rung me, I could have told them that two years ago. I am probably on here somewhere saying pretty much the same.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

“On all levels, hydrogen has been a failure for passenger cars,” said James Hong, head of Asia energy transition and commodities at Macquarie Capital. “Where we still haven’t got an answer yet is on commercial vehicles

Another announcement snuck out before Christmas was that Hyzon was pulling the plug - they had been one of the first to produce a commercial hydrogen truck, with a particular focus on bin lorries :
https://www.trucknews.com/sustainability/hyzon-to-wind-down-operations/1003192433/

They should have rung me, I could have told them that two years ago. I am probably on here somewhere saying pretty much the same.

May 2023 I think?
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/electric-cars.100585/page-39#post-1220683

In my case 2020 (and earlier than that elsewhere)
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...under-pms-green-plan.90990/page-3#post-973887

 

[Chippy_Tea]

BMW has announced a move away from electric vehicles, stating that it has successfully addressed the challenges of hydrogen engine technology.
The company revealed significant progress in hydrogen fuel cell development, which it sees as a more sustainable alternative to conventional electric cars.
Unlike electric vehicles that depend on large batteries, hydrogen engines use lightweight fuel cells, offering faster refuelling and greater range.
BMW also emphasized the environmental benefits, highlighting that hydrogen-powered vehicles emit only water vapor, making them a promising solution for the future of eco-friendly transportation.
#BMW #ElectricCars #HydrogenEngines #SustainableTransport #GreenEnergy #FutureOfDriving

 

[DocAnna]

I know I'm repeating others (and myself), people still seem to think of hydrogen like the gas that powers their boilers and the air we breathe....it's not. It's horribly reactive stuff that leaks through solid hardened steel, and damages everything it comes into contact with.

I do though think it may have a niche for energy storage over the short term, where renewable energy is plentiful but intermittent. It does irk that electricity in Orkney costs the same as elsewhere but we regularly have to turn off the turbines because the export cables can't cope with how much is being produced. Anyway while we don't have any mains gas up here, we oddly do have a hydrogen gas refuelling station near the Kirkwall harbour... I've no idea who uses it though!

 

[Brew_DD2]

BMW has announced a move away from electric vehicles, stating that it has successfully addressed the challenges of hydrogen engine technology.
The company revealed significant progress in hydrogen fuel cell development, which it sees as a more sustainable alternative to conventional electric cars.
Unlike electric vehicles that depend on large batteries, hydrogen engines use lightweight fuel cells, offering faster refuelling and greater range.
BMW also emphasized the environmental benefits, highlighting that hydrogen-powered vehicles emit only water vapor, making them a promising solution for the future of eco-friendly transportation.
#BMW #ElectricCars #HydrogenEngines #SustainableTransport #GreenEnergy #FutureOfDriving

View attachment 107954

Is this from an article?

 

[MashBag]

BMW has announced a move away from electric vehicles, stating that it has successfully addressed the challenges of hydrogen engine technology.
The company revealed significant progress in hydrogen fuel cell development, which it sees as a more sustainable alternative to conventional electric cars.
Unlike electric vehicles that depend on large batteries, hydrogen engines use lightweight fuel cells, offering faster refuelling and greater range.
BMW also emphasized the environmental benefits, highlighting that hydrogen-powered vehicles emit only water vapor, making them a promising solution for the future of eco-friendly transportation.
#BMW #ElectricCars #HydrogenEngines #SustainableTransport #GreenEnergy #FutureOfDriving

View attachment 107954

So BMW hasn't caught up then.

 

[MashBag]

I do though think it may have a niche for energy storage over the short term,

That is the very reason I got involved.

Did the senimars / lectures / partners etc. Bought the pie, eat the shirt, wore the video.

Noooooooooo

 

[JockyBrewer]

BMW wants nothing to do with hydrogen: They have invested everything in this engine​

While many major automobile companies are looking to diversify their alternative engine solutions using hydrogen, biofuels, and even alcohol others are sticking to the electric engine which has continued to dominate the renewable engine sector. BMW is one such company who is continuing to look towards advancing their electric engine offerings as increasing pressure is put on the automobile world to give up the internal combustion engine.

The BMW Group has reached a major milestone in its electric vehicle production, as the first electric engine produced at its Steyr plant in Upper Austria was delivered to Debrecen, Hungary, in December last year just ten months after the installation of the production system began. These sixth-generation electric engines, which began production three months ago, will power test vehicles for BMW’s upcoming Neue Klasse platform.

“We’ve been delivering these engines to our development department in Munich since September, and now we’re sending them directly to BMW Group Plant Debrecen for test vehicle installation,” said Klaus von Moltke, Senior Vice President of Engine Production at BMW AG and Managing Director of BMW Group Plant Steyr.

The Steyr plant facility where the new electric engine has been produced is BMW’s largest engine production plant globally. Annually, the plant produces over one million internal combustion engines. However, in 2022, BMW announced that the plant will begin electric vehicle production in 2025. Now, with BMW following true to their world, the expansion of the plant to include electrical engine production highlights BMW’s commitment to driving the production of their alternative engine solutions.

BMW currently offers several electric and hybrid vehicles, including the BMW iX, BMW i7, and BMW i3. While BMW is focusing on their electrical engine developments, they have also been embracing hydrogen engine solutions with plans to release a hydrogen drive vehicle by 2028. However, the German automobile company has also understood the popularity of electric and hybrid vehicles and has decided to continue expanding these engine solutions while also looking at other alternatives.

 

[MashBag]

Now that would make the milk round quicker

 

[Northern_Brewer]

BMW has announced a move away from electric vehicles, stating that it has successfully addressed the challenges of hydrogen engine technology.

Please Chippy, can you at least give a source URL when you post this kind of nonsense? Then people could see that it's nothing to do with BMW, it's a random Instagram account : https://www.instagram.com/unknownfactsinsta/p/DEmZQ63vnYv/

In reality BMW is very much not moving away from EVs, they're pouring money into them :
https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/fina...-2024-tipping-point-combustion-engines-passed
In August 2023, Mertl said that the brand is "investing more than originally planned in the global ramp-of e-mobility," according to Bloomberg, while the research and development (R&D)) The expenditure was €3,396 million in the half-year report 2023, up 15.4% from 2022, focusing on "new models, the electrification and digitalisation of the vehicle fleet, and automated driving....BMW wants EVs to represent a third of all its sales by 2026, continue diversifying its product portfolio, and introduce more innovation. "

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/glob...ctric-models-from-the-end-of-2027?language=en
The Munich plant is an excellent example of our ability to adapt. We are investing € 650 million here and will produce exclusively all-electric vehicles in our parent plant from the end of 2027...Nowadays, every second vehicle that rolls off the production line has an all-electric drive system. From 2026, production of the Neue Klasse in the Munich plant will initially run parallel to production of current models. A good year later, from the end of 2027, the BMW Group’s parent plant will be the first existing site in the global production network to manufacture exclusively all-electric vehicles...After the start in the new plant in Debrecen, Hungary, and in Munich, the Neue Klasse vehicles will also be produced in Shenyang, China, and San Luis Potosí in Mexico.....In order to create the space within the limited floor space at the plant in the heart of Munich, the traditional engine manufacturing has been moved to Hams-Hall in Great Britain and Steyr in Austria after roughly 70 years at the parent plant.

https://www.reuters.com/business/au...6-billion-chinese-production-site-2024-04-26/
BMW said on Friday it planned to invest an additional 20 billion yuan ($2.76 billion) in its Shenyang production base in China, in a sign of the premium carmaker's "unwavering commitment to the Chinese market".
The sum, which brings total investment in the plant up to some 105 billion yuan, will allow for production of the Neue Klasse EV-only line, a multibillion-euro effort to jump the technology gap with competitors, starting in 2026, it added.

In comparison, they're planning their first hydrogen model for launch in three years time.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Please Chippy, can you at least give a source URL?

Agreed. I've raised this before.

 

[Nicks90]

Is this from an article?

No
Its clickbait false narrative that has nothing to do with BMW and shows some ridiculous ai produced image of some form of engine, which is funny as its talking about BMW going down the hydrogen electric route and not hydrogen ice route

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Is this from an article?

I haven't a clue it was on X that's why i posted all the # at the bottom.

Please Chippy, can you at least give a source URL?

As above.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Please Chippy, can you at least give a source URL when you post this kind of nonsense?

It took me less time to find the answer than it took you to post that

BMW says Goodbye to Electric Cars; it has now Solved the Problem of Hydrogen Engines – MES

https://hydrogen-central.com/bmw-sa...w-solved-the-problem-of-hydrogen-engines-mes/