help with yeast collecting

[mirsultankhan]

I don't like Brewers Fiend yeast calc as I find it far to conservative, at least for dried yeast -it tells you to pitch, very obviously, far more yeast than you need.

Its quite interesting. I read only last week the criteria that provides the parameters for their calculation and it seems to be based upon professional brewers rather than the recommended pitch rate of yeast manufacturers.

A popular study done by George Fix concluded a rate of 0.75 million cells / ml / degree Plato is appropriate for ales, and double that for lagers. Other popular brewing tools use this number, though some opt for 1.0 instead of 0.75.

Lagers require about twice the pitch rate of ales, since they ferment at lower temperatures.

Pro brewers pitch at a higher rate to mitigate risk of infection, ferment quickly, and ensure a consistent product. Serious home brewers who want to get excellent beer pitch at higher rates too.

Our analysis indicates that at present, the liquid yeast manufacturers like White Labs and Wyeast give home brewers just barely enough yeast cells to get by for a typical batch of Ale. They say one pack or vial is enough for 5 gallons of wort at 1.060 and contains approximately 100 billion cells. This comes out to a pitch rate of 0.35 million cells per milliliter per degree plato. This is half the rate of what pro brewer’s use.

Why the low pitch rate from the manufacturers?
In their defense, the product does contain extremely healthy first generation yeast. One justification might be that the 0.75 rate really applies to pro brewers – who repitch. That re-pitched yeast contains some trub, dead yeast, and other junk, so the 0.75 rate is not as pure as the 0.35 manufacturer’s rate. Repithched yeast can’t be 50% gunk, probably closer to just 10% after washing.

To make matters worse with liquid yeast for home brewers, the overall viability drops as time passes. Liquid yeast viability drops 21% each month, or 0.7% each day, from the date of manufacture. So in about 5 months, that pack is pretty much dead. I only buy yeast manufactured in the last 4 weeks at my local home brew store, and I use it as soon as possible. Lesson here: only use the freshest liquid yeast, and get ready to learn how to make yeast starters if you want to use liquid yeast…

What pitch rate makes sense for the home brewer?

We asked a gold medal winning brewer and home brew store owner about this. He says he would never pitch at a rate of 0.35, and makes a starter for anything above 1.040 for a 5 gallon batch. We are convinced as well, though we realize making starters is not always an option for everybody. In our yeast pitch and starter calculator, we left it open so you can choose, or at least see what the manufacturers recommend vs the pros.

 

[Wonderwoman]

How do I know how many yeast cells my collection has or how much of it to pitch next time?

And for making a starter before pitching, I heard that you should keep the yeast-wort-mix moving like with a stirring plate or sth, is that necessary or could you just let it sit there over night? Maybe, if you prep the starte 24hrs prior to pitching you could swirl it every time you walk past or something but over night it would have to sit still without a stirring device.

 

[nbpicklesno2]

As long as you shake the begezus out of it four times a day, it works perfectly. Dont worry about a stir plate.

I'm currently a little disappointed that my stolen Thwaits yeast I starting to smell a little funny after a weeks love and attention.

Off to a local beer festival tomorrow to see if I can get hold of some Thornbridge or Oakham yeast for propogation, and perhaps sample a few.

I can always be recognised from the bulge in my pocket.

No, not from the excitement of the event, but the empty vials I'm carrying, hopefully, for yeast filled beer.

 

[baggybill]

wow that's interesting I don't know if I could recognise the signs of mutation. What made it mutate, was it exposure to UV light?

Under bright light, look in the jar very closely. If you see anything looking back at you or even waving at you, might be best to pitch a fresh vial!

 

[MyQul]

How do I know how many yeast cells my collection has or how much of it to pitch next time?

And for making a starter before pitching, I heard that you should keep the yeast-wort-mix moving like with a stirring plate or sth, is that necessary or could you just let it sit there over night? Maybe, if you prep the starte 24hrs prior to pitching you could swirl it every time you walk past or something but over night it would have to sit still without a stirring device.

Once you've rinsed your yeast out of the trub and then put it in the fridge to compact down as much as possible, the general internet consensus (including the liquid yeast surpliers) is it will be 1.2billion cells per ml. You can then use a yeast calc to find out how much to pitch.

You don't need a stir plate. Just shake the bottle every time you walk past (or at least 4 times per day). There are even those who argue that stir plates damage the yeast cells and you shouldn't use them

 

[mirsultankhan]

Under bright light, look in the jar very closely. If you see anything looking back at you or even waving at you, might be best to pitch a fresh vial!

woa! what if it mutates into a classic strain that everybody loves, do you get to call it anything you like?

 

[MyQul]

woa! what if it mutates into a classic strain that everybody loves, do you get to call it anything you like?

Yup. Mirsultankhan's Chaos yeast anyone. :lol:

Seriously though if you were to continue to reuse a yeast (you'd have to top crop though to be able to repeatedly use it over many, many generations) it will adapt to your 'brew house' and then you will have created a house yeast

 

[mike-os]

Glad someone asked why you 'can't harvest dry yeast'...... sounded like bull when I first read it and smells more and more like it all the time

If collecting krausen do you store and prepare the same way? (Appreciate that there is no trub to deal with) and potentially less risk of infection

If you run out of dme could you use brewing sugar to keep a culture going , or better to just make sue you don't run out?

 

[MyQul]

Glad someone asked why you 'can't harvest dry yeast'...... sounded like bull when I first read it and smells more and more like it all the time

If collecting krausen do you store and prepare the same way? (Appreciate that there is no trub to deal with) and potentially less risk of infection

If you run out of dme could you use brewing sugar to keep a culture going , or better to just make sue you don't run out?

With collecting krausen there is a risk of infection as you have to open the FV to collect it. But with the proper top cropping strains you can attatch a top cropping collection device to the blow off tube (basically a jar with a grommet in the lid for the blow off tube to go in then a second grommet in the lid to put an airlock in)

Krausen needs to be used withing a couple of days of collection as unlike bottom cropped yeast it hasn't built up reserves of energy. To get around this for longer term storage just put the collected krausen in some 1.040 starter wort, ferment it out then store in the fridge until needed

You cant uses brewing sugar in place of DME for starters as it hasn't got all the nutrients in it for yeast. Bit like me living on a diet of pure sugar. I'd be ok for a short while but then I'd start to suffer malnutrician

 

[Wonderwoman]

Once you've rinsed your yeast out of the trub and then put it in the fridge to compact down as much as possible, the general internet consensus (including the liquid yeast surpliers) is it will be 1.2billion cells per ml. You can then use a yeast calc to find out how much to pitch.

Is that including the watery bit on top, i.e. the whole size of the jar? I can take a photo of my collection if that helps. I've got some white sediment in the bottom (looks darker than trub so I think I washed all the trub out) and milky water on top (which by now has probably changed or separated or sth)

 

[MyQul]

1.2bl/ml doesn't include the watery stuff on top only the compacted yeast. Yes, a photo would help

 

[DoctorMick]

Does this look right?



Obviously more trub that I would like but I was expecting a more defined layer of yeast. The beer is very cloudy tho so I'm assuming there is plenty in suspension. Will I be alrigh to just chuck this in a 5g batch today without a starter? It was only harvested yesterday.

 

[MyQul]

Its hard to see any stratifactions on the piccy but how much ml of 'stuff' below the water is there? (If youv'e got an identical jar just fill it up to the 'stuff' line then measure the water)

If it was me and I was unsure I'd definately do a starter to make sure and pitch it at high krausen rather then let it ferment out completely.

If you want to pitch it today make the starter as soon as possible shake the hell out of it to aerate and then put it somewhere warm like an airing cupbourd or something (remeber your making yeast not beer so it doesn't matter if it's warmer than fermenting temps)

What was your collection process btw? and has 'stuff' in the piccy been rinsed?

 

[MyQul]

As I say it's hard to to tell how much yeast is in the piccy but to get a good idea how much you've got. Measure how much 'stuff' is in the jar (you can just use a ruler rather than the above method) then give the jar a shake and leave is on the side for 15-20mins. Most of the trub will have settled on the bottom of the jar much sooner than the yeast begins to. You then be able to see how much of that 'stuff' is trub rather than yeast.

Tbh, It doesn't look like you've got much yeast in there as you say your surprised at how much trub you've got. But as I say earlier I'd be much happier making a started if a lot of that stuff is trub

 

[DoctorMick]

I swirled up the trub with a bit of remaining beer, left for 20 mins then poured some in to a glass jar. Shook the hell out of it, left it for half an hour then poured in to another glass jar minus most of the settled out trub so I think that means it's been rinsed right?

Looks like I'm not going to get to brew today anyway so I'll make a starter next week.

 

[MyQul]

Your methods are sound. However I found that how succesful you are at harvesting the yeast in this way depends on how much trub is in the bottom of the FV. As a no chiller I often get a lot of trub so the method you've descibed meant that I just ended up with a jar of trub, so I developed my method of rinsing with spent starter wort.

Definately think it's a good Idea to make a starter. If you want ot use the yeast repeatedly consider 'overbuilding'. Intead of just making a starter puting what you've got in it then pitching the result. Put what you've got in a 2L starter ferment it out then split it in two. Use the first split to put in another 1L starter to pitch into your next brew and use the second split to put into a 2L starter to then split into two again. You can repeatedly do this up to at least 13 generations

 

[DoctorMick]

Just had another look and there is a thin white layer on top of the trub. The beer above is very cloudy too so I think there is quite a bit in suspension, not surprising as the yeast didn't flocculate very well in the fermenter and needed a few days cold crashing to drop out.

 

[MyQul]

Just had another look and there is a thin white layer on top of the trub. The beer above is very cloudy too so I think there is quite a bit in suspension, not surprising as the yeast didn't flocculate very well in the fermenter and needed a few days cold crashing to drop out.

Which yeast is it btw?

 

[DoctorMick]

Which yeast is it btw?

White labs San Diego super

 

[Wonderwoman]

Here is my yeast. Is been in the fridge a few days. The white stuff on the bottom looks very clean, no grains etc so I think it is all yeast? On the pic you can see that in the middle on the bottom there are a few grains so I guess there is a thin layer of trub but I wouldn't think its thick at all as I rinsed it. Does this look okay? It was the Nottingham ale yeast.