Mark1964
Landlord.
Im looking for a powerful heating element but it has to be the same size thread/hole needed for the backer 2.75kw element. Any ideas?
heating element
- Thread starter Mark1964
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Vossy1
Landlord.
Nope, sorry, from what I've seen the more powerful elements have larger bases.
Is it a case of you not wanting to widen an existing hole or something else M?
Is it a case of you not wanting to widen an existing hole or something else M?
Mark1964
Landlord.
our element is not really giving a good boil so was thinking of a more powerful one with same size hole. Looks like ill have to drill out another hole for another element :thumb:
Vossy1
Landlord.
I too have thought about the need to change elements at some point in the future...the idea of widening the hole REALLY doesn't appeal to me...maybe eskimobob has some tips :hmm:
Would it be easier to fit an additional smaller element as an option ?
Would it be easier to fit an additional smaller element as an option ?
EskiBrew
Regular.
Mark - when you say more powerful, presumably you are still meaning within 3kW?
If you want to go above that, you need a separate supply on fixed wiring otherwise you risk overloading the outlet.
Normally if people want to boil quicker they would use a second element as Vossy suggests - just be sure not to plug it into the same socket outlet as the first element (e.g. don't plug two element into a double wall socket :nono: ).
If you want to go above that, you need a separate supply on fixed wiring otherwise you risk overloading the outlet.
Normally if people want to boil quicker they would use a second element as Vossy suggests - just be sure not to plug it into the same socket outlet as the first element (e.g. don't plug two element into a double wall socket :nono: ).
Mark1964
Landlord.
i may just add a tesco kettle element as a back up. The backer one is 2.75kw but its strange that sometimes it boils like crazy but others (yesterdays brew) it was a slow boil. I use the same amounts of water every brew so just cannot work it out. I already have a 38mm hole saw from building the heat exchanger so will possibly use that for another hole and a tesco kettle element. 
Dronfieldbrewer
Landlord.
Nowt wrong wi tesco jobbies. I use 2 in my 100 litre boiler. before you cut another hole try a bit more insulation
miker7301
Active Member
Mark1964 said:i may just add a tesco kettle element as a back up. The backer one is 2.75kw but its strange that sometimes it boils like crazy but others (yesterdays brew) it was a slow boil. I use the same amounts of water every brew so just cannot work it out. I already have a 38mm hole saw from building the heat exchanger so will possibly use that for another hole and a tesco kettle element.
Hi Mark, I guess you've tried cleaning the element, I know your a mod, and therefore know what your doing, but sometimes the obvious is not clear when your up to your **** in wort.
Or, all things being equal, have you looked at the power consumption of your house when you brew, or the supply voltage, which is supposed to be within strict bounds, but can be quite variable (depending on other users/houses on your circuit) I remember rigging a show once, and the spark and I were messing around, testing the input voltages at a museum, and we saw a very significant 8% drop which dimmed the lights in the switch room, we noted the same drop a multitude of times (without our stage kit being involved) we tracked it down to the lift, which had an inductive motor, and an insufficient mains cable. Needless to say, we reported it, and the museum got a better rated cable.
I know that may seem outside the remit of the forum and anecdotal, but, extrapolate it down, what else runs off the circuit you use to boil? Adding another element may not have the result you intend!
Hi Mark, give these guys a try, they have a good range of elements :thumb:
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/cateringequipmentspareparts
http://stores.ebay.co.uk/cateringequipmentspareparts
Mark1964
Landlord.
Thanks, nothing else is running when we boil so cant see that being the problem really. Ill take a look at the catering people see what they have :
Kev888
Regular.
More power can work (and help you to heat it quicker), but the ferocity of boil can also be boosted very effectively by reducing heat loss.
I have just one 3kw element in a 25gallon boiler (because thats all my garage circuit can safely supply) - its a tad tedious waiting for all that wort to heat, there are no two ways about that, but once the boil is reached it works fine. To achieve that I've insulated it with camping/sleeping mats to minimise heat loss through the sides, and so get a boil - albeit pretty modest. If I then mostly cover the boiler with the lid (say except for an inch or so) it becomes a fierce rolling boil.
Don't let worries about DMS put you off a partially-on lid. You do indeed need to leave an easy way out for both that and the steam, but an inch gap provides 'very' little restriction. Also whilst some steam may condense on the lid and return to the boil, DMS is much more volatile and so won't condense on the lid if the lid is hot - IIRC over about 40c - it'll float around and then out easily, rather than returning.
But if you want more than 3kw you'll either be looking at more than one kettle element or an industrial type of thing, since 3kw maxes out a domestic 13A socket. You can get industrial immersion elements at higher powers (though they need a bigger hole); I have seen things like swimming pool heaters with fairly small holes but i don't know much about them,
If you go with two elements, I should mention that two x 3kw can use most of the capacity of a standard 30A ring main, so depending on what else is running on the circuit you may need to run one element from another circuit (like a cooker socket). Also (amazingly) double sockets are not rated at 2x 13A, in fact most are 13A 'total', so even if you can plug two elements into one circuit its best to use separate sockets, even if they're double.
Cheers
kev
I have just one 3kw element in a 25gallon boiler (because thats all my garage circuit can safely supply) - its a tad tedious waiting for all that wort to heat, there are no two ways about that, but once the boil is reached it works fine. To achieve that I've insulated it with camping/sleeping mats to minimise heat loss through the sides, and so get a boil - albeit pretty modest. If I then mostly cover the boiler with the lid (say except for an inch or so) it becomes a fierce rolling boil.
Don't let worries about DMS put you off a partially-on lid. You do indeed need to leave an easy way out for both that and the steam, but an inch gap provides 'very' little restriction. Also whilst some steam may condense on the lid and return to the boil, DMS is much more volatile and so won't condense on the lid if the lid is hot - IIRC over about 40c - it'll float around and then out easily, rather than returning.
But if you want more than 3kw you'll either be looking at more than one kettle element or an industrial type of thing, since 3kw maxes out a domestic 13A socket. You can get industrial immersion elements at higher powers (though they need a bigger hole); I have seen things like swimming pool heaters with fairly small holes but i don't know much about them,
If you go with two elements, I should mention that two x 3kw can use most of the capacity of a standard 30A ring main, so depending on what else is running on the circuit you may need to run one element from another circuit (like a cooker socket). Also (amazingly) double sockets are not rated at 2x 13A, in fact most are 13A 'total', so even if you can plug two elements into one circuit its best to use separate sockets, even if they're double.
Cheers
kev
silverbrewer
Active Member
Just a thought, but is there not a risk of burning the wort as the Tesco elements are very high wattage density...ie there is not much surface area on the small element length.
My Tesco elements heat just the water, and I have bought low density and ultra low density elements from the USA.
To get low density elements, I did go down the uk style Emerson heater element route, but it has the massive threaded boss, whereas the yank ones have a tiny 1" NPT thread which is similar to our 1" BSP thread, and is nearly, but I would say not compatable. (I run a NPT tap through standard BSP stainless parts)
The bummer is these yank elements are 4.5 kw and need to be hard wired into the consumer unit, though mine are coming out of the shed ceiling via inline industrial connectors.
To see what I am on about, go to the USA eBay site and search for "ripple element" which is ultra low density. They do a straight shorter version that is much cheaper and only classed as low density, but the ripple jobbie is the ultimate
What annoys me the most is how our Emerson heater elements are over £15 each and the yank ones are just a few dollars
My Tesco elements heat just the water, and I have bought low density and ultra low density elements from the USA.
To get low density elements, I did go down the uk style Emerson heater element route, but it has the massive threaded boss, whereas the yank ones have a tiny 1" NPT thread which is similar to our 1" BSP thread, and is nearly, but I would say not compatable. (I run a NPT tap through standard BSP stainless parts)
The bummer is these yank elements are 4.5 kw and need to be hard wired into the consumer unit, though mine are coming out of the shed ceiling via inline industrial connectors.
To see what I am on about, go to the USA eBay site and search for "ripple element" which is ultra low density. They do a straight shorter version that is much cheaper and only classed as low density, but the ripple jobbie is the ultimate
What annoys me the most is how our Emerson heater elements are over £15 each and the yank ones are just a few dollars
EskiBrew
Regular.
silverbrewer said:
Just a thought. You could connect one to a phase angle controller and ensure that no more than 3kW was delivered :ugeek:
tazuk
Landlord.
+1 tesco elements now at £1;50 each on offer :thumb:
:thumb: robbarwell said:
silverbrewer
Active Member
Eskimobob.....I am going to wire the elements in to a proper supply that can deliver their full requirements, but I am also controlling them via an ST1000 that will power a small PWM (pulse width modulation) control board that will power a suitable SSR,(solid state relay) that will switch the power to the element.
The PWM board, that costs under a tenner, has a pre-set style potentiometer that gives me the ability to set and control the elements output from nearly zero to nearly full power, and if I include a switch that bypasses the PWM, I then have a temperature controller that can be started on full power and then when it is up to temp, it can be switched to a pre set power level, leaving the ST1000 to maintain the temp at the minimum power output needed. That way I will be using ultra ultra low density elements for most of the time. Each process will have its own dedicated controller and pre-set PWM board, ie mash liquor tun will be set to strike temp, mash tun water jacket to mash temp, rims heater to mash temp, then sparge liquor tun to sparge temp, mash tun water jacket to sparge temp etc etc. If the PWM board in each process is backed off to a pre-set level just slightly higher than required then the ST1000 will switch it occasionally and the power density the element delivers will be as low as it can be. Obviously, the rims heater will only ever be at the pre-set power setting.
Does this make sense, or am I talking sheeite as usual?
The yank elements are only $27, so if anyone is holidaying over the pond, then they need to bring some back in their suitcase, and either sell them on, or use them.
When I can post external links I will edit this with links.
The PWM board, that costs under a tenner, has a pre-set style potentiometer that gives me the ability to set and control the elements output from nearly zero to nearly full power, and if I include a switch that bypasses the PWM, I then have a temperature controller that can be started on full power and then when it is up to temp, it can be switched to a pre set power level, leaving the ST1000 to maintain the temp at the minimum power output needed. That way I will be using ultra ultra low density elements for most of the time. Each process will have its own dedicated controller and pre-set PWM board, ie mash liquor tun will be set to strike temp, mash tun water jacket to mash temp, rims heater to mash temp, then sparge liquor tun to sparge temp, mash tun water jacket to sparge temp etc etc. If the PWM board in each process is backed off to a pre-set level just slightly higher than required then the ST1000 will switch it occasionally and the power density the element delivers will be as low as it can be. Obviously, the rims heater will only ever be at the pre-set power setting.
Does this make sense, or am I talking sheeite as usual?
The yank elements are only $27, so if anyone is holidaying over the pond, then they need to bring some back in their suitcase, and either sell them on, or use them.
When I can post external links I will edit this with links.
EskiBrew
Regular.
silverbrewer said:
Seems a little more complicated than it needs to be.
If you used a PID controller with an SSR to control the elements then you can do away with the STC1000 and the PWM controller. No manual switching to be done, the PID controller will bring up to temp and then reduce average power to only that necessary to maintain the set point.
silverbrewer
Active Member
Does the PID reduce the power using PWM at say 1khz, or is it no different then the STC1000 that let's say powers the element flat out for 10 seconds then leaves it off for 1.5 minutes to get the same effect? Still kind of pwm, but with a big power blast!
Pids are fine and dandy if you know how to set them up, but with Chinese instructions and a small brain I don't stand a chance! I can do an STC1000, and I can twist a pre-set pot untill it is about the correct setting.........I have a pid, but it only makes it out of it's box for short periods and gets put back again. :lol:
I wish I had listened at school, but they didn't have PIDS then so there wouldn't have been much point!!
Pids are fine and dandy if you know how to set them up, but with Chinese instructions and a small brain I don't stand a chance! I can do an STC1000, and I can twist a pre-set pot untill it is about the correct setting.........I have a pid, but it only makes it out of it's box for short periods and gets put back again. :lol:
I wish I had listened at school, but they didn't have PIDS then so there wouldn't have been much point!!
EskiBrew
Regular.
The PID controller will switch the element on and off much faster than the STC1000 but not at 1kHz which is more the relm of PWM controller.
The time it is on is dependant on the Proportional term, the Integral term and the Derivative term. While you could play with the actual values for these individual terms, it is easier and far simpler to just press the button sequence which starts the PID auto-tune sequence. It will then determine suitable values itself.
For the sake of am example, if the temperature is near the set point then the SSR will only be activated for perhaps 1 second every 5 seconds (20% power effectively) depending on the rate of heat loss from the vessel.
Hope this helps :thumb:
The time it is on is dependant on the Proportional term, the Integral term and the Derivative term. While you could play with the actual values for these individual terms, it is easier and far simpler to just press the button sequence which starts the PID auto-tune sequence. It will then determine suitable values itself.
For the sake of am example, if the temperature is near the set point then the SSR will only be activated for perhaps 1 second every 5 seconds (20% power effectively) depending on the rate of heat loss from the vessel.
Hope this helps :thumb:
Dronfieldbrewer
Landlord.
All this thread has gone straight over my head...
I thought we were all homebrewers but this seems to be getting very complicated..
I thought we were all homebrewers but this seems to be getting very complicated..
silverbrewer
Active Member
Well I bought 3 kits from the states to make small PWM control boards. They work a treat on the 4.5kW elements I have, so I am pleased with that. A single capacitor value change gets the operating frequency to 1 HZ, and that is controlled to give near zero wattage to near max wattage from the element by the mere turn of a knob. Forum member mrfrosty was visiting during these tests and was quite impressed as well
I was intending copying them to make a couple more for me and some for others, using components from Maplins, but it pans out that just buying the components will be the best part of a fiver, so while I am now looking to obtain the components by scrounging them from techie mates, I am also buying a cheap Chinese circuit to experiment with.......If that fails I will just buy a few more from the States, even though with postage and the risk of Customs charges they are about £7 each at a rough guess.
All these circuits are originally intended to act as speed controllers on small electric motors, and because of that they use medium sized expensive power transistors that we don't strictly need just to switch an SSR, so a bit of a re-design will get the price point down a tad, and save about a quid...more experimenting...
I was intending copying them to make a couple more for me and some for others, using components from Maplins, but it pans out that just buying the components will be the best part of a fiver, so while I am now looking to obtain the components by scrounging them from techie mates, I am also buying a cheap Chinese circuit to experiment with.......If that fails I will just buy a few more from the States, even though with postage and the risk of Customs charges they are about £7 each at a rough guess.
All these circuits are originally intended to act as speed controllers on small electric motors, and because of that they use medium sized expensive power transistors that we don't strictly need just to switch an SSR, so a bit of a re-design will get the price point down a tad, and save about a quid...more experimenting...
