Free Scotland

[Brew_DD2]

The idea that democracy only gets to happen once is almost as insane as the assumption that the "Nats" will be in charge of running an independent Scotland.

Both premises are usually peddled by people being completely disingenuous, of course.



The "premise" I was trying to raise is that unfortunately the current Scottish Govt isn't really doing that well. There are numerous problems which require to be addressed prior to IndyRef 2; sadly some folk just feel that wishing for independence will solve them
If the Nationalists in power took more time to fix the problems AND try to persuade the doubters (me included) that there is at least an economic argument, maybe, and only maybe, we could have a balanced discussion as to the future.

Post-independence, I, and many others would drop the SNP like a stone. I don't think they are great at governance (albeit better than those at Westminster), but they are essentially governing with one hand behind their back.

 

[Brew_DD2]

In a one word answer NO we decided in 2014 when the Scottsih Gov signed up to a Once in a Generation Referendum. Get on with running the Country not grand standing .
I live in Scotland

You might want to read the Edinburgh Agreement. It doesn't state "once in a generation anywhere". It was a slogan used to describe the enormity of the opportunity, not a legal position.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I totally agree with that but as has been said they signed up to a Once in a Generation Referendum in 2014 and now want another, what happens if the result is the same do they demand another a couple of years later?

As per my previous post, there is nothing legislatively that states "once in a generation".

Scotland repeatedly votes in pro-independence parties on manifesto pledges to continue pursuing independence. It's their duty to fulfil that pledge if they get voted in, which they have done for over a decade now. That's democracy.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I totally agree with that but as has been said they signed up to a Once in a Generation Referendum in 2014 and now want another, what happens if the result is the same do they demand another a couple of years later?

Whilst I get this argument and agree with it in principal, Brexit basically changed the status quo so much that the argument doesn't hold water anymore. It's not reasonable to apply 2014's decision to 2022 when Scotland is no longer a member of the EU.

If the argument is "you had a referendum on the topic already" then the same holds true for the 1973 (?) one to take us into the EU. Of course, the argument for the 2016 referendum is that "a lot changed since 1973". Well guess what... A lot has changed since 2014!!!

 

[The Baron]

I totally agree with that but as has been said they signed up to a Once in a Generation Referendum in 2014 and now want another, what happens if the result is the same do they demand another a couple of years later?

Best of three comes to mind

 

[An Ankoù]

I totally agree with that but as has been said they signed up to a Once in a Generation Referendum in 2014 and now want another, what happens if the result is the same do they demand another a couple of years later?

It's a good question, but as I suggested earlier, brexit has completely changed the landscape, apparently, even if the rest of the UK is Scotland's principle trading partner by a mile.
Isn't every 10 years considered a generation?
How valid are the arguments that Westminster is stifling democracy and that the Union is not a union of consenting nations? (was it ever?)

 

[An Ankoù]

Whilst I get this argument and agree with it in principal, Brexit basically changed the status quo so much that the argument doesn't hold water anymore. It's not reasonable to apply 2014's decision to 2022 when Scotland is no longer a member of the EU.

If the argument is "you had a referendum on the topic already" then the same holds true for the 1973 (?) one to take us into the EU. Of course, the argument for the 2016 referendum is that "a lot changed since 1973". Well guess what... A lot has changed since 2014!!!

Did we have a referendum about joining the EEC? I thought Ted Heath simply signed us up and then we had a referendum later under John Major about the Mastricht Treaty.
But I'm craap at history.

 

[The Baron]

Definition of a generation
A generation refers to all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively. It can also be described as, "the average period, generally considered to be about 20–⁠30 years, during which children are born and grow up, become adults, and begin to have children."

 

[An Ankoù]

Definition of a generation
A generation refers to all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively. It can also be described as, "the average period, generally considered to be about 20–⁠30 years, during which children are born and grow up, become adults, and begin to have children."

That's only one opinion (Wikipedia's) Baron.
Here's a few more: How Long Is a Generation? Today and In History
Rather kicks any kind of context for" once in a generation" into the long grass, methinks.

 

[Brew_DD2]

The once in a generation argument is a distraction and has no credible foundation. Scotland has voted in several elections since then. If you've not noticed who is still the third biggest party at Westminster, and biggest (by some distance) in Scotland, you're deliberately looking the other way.

 

[Brewnaldo]

It's truly eye opening how many people are comfortable with a clear and obvious democratic deficit, as long as it it's tipping the way they want it to

 

[devexwarrior]

 

[devexwarrior]

It's truly eye opening how many people are comfortable with a clear and obvious democratic deficit, as long as it it's tipping the way they want it to

You mean "as long as it's not tipping the way I want it to".

 

[Brewnaldo]

You mean "as long as it's not tipping the way I want it to".

No mate, the repeated, thumping wins for pro indy parties in both Scottish and UK wide elections, (complete with relentlessly embarrassing rinsings for the Tories and "labour") which indicate the political will of the Scottish people do the tipping as far as my argument is concerned.

 

[Brew_DD2]

View attachment 78197

Remind us how many PMs she's outlasted...

 

[Agentgonzo]

Did we have a referendum about joining the EEC? I thought Ted Heath simply signed us up and then we had a referendum later under John Major about the Mastricht Treaty.
But I'm craap at history.

Yes. 1975. A retroactive referendum about joining the EEC

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_United_Kingdom_European_Communities_membership_referendum

 

[devexwarrior]

No mate, the repeated, thumping wins for pro indy parties in both Scottish and UK wide elections, (complete with relentlessly embarrassing rinsings for the Tories and "labour") which indicate the political will of the Scottish people do the tipping as far as my argument is concerned.

The Supreme Court was asked to rule on Law. Which it did. Personally I think Scotland would be down the toilet in 5 years after Independence. The country takes far more for the Union than it gives and would take 20 years to join the EU, even before taking into consideration the massive outflow of capital because the remainder of the Union wold strip out everything. The vote ws held for Independence and the population voted for the Union. That's life. I've seen plenty of elections go the way I'd not have preferred but that's life. As with all things, you have your opinion and I mine. If I were a Scot I'd keep quiet and carry on letting someone else pay for Defence, Universities, Health etc but then I'm not Scottish

 

[Brewnaldo]

The Supreme Court was asked to rule on Law. Which it did. Personally I think Scotland would be down the toilet in 5 years after Independence. The country takes far more for the Union than it gives and would take 20 years to join the EU, even before taking into consideration the massive outflow of capital because the remainder of the Union wold strip out everything. The vote ws held for Independence and the population voted for the Union. That's life. I've seen plenty of elections go the way I'd not have preferred but that's life. As with all things, you have your opinion and I mine. If I were a Scot I'd keep quiet and carry on letting someone else pay for Defence, Universities, Health etc but then I'm not Scottish (thank f'ck)

Oh good. Glad to see you have at least pinned your true colours to the mast and can be disregarded as someone to take seriously in this conversation.

 

[Brew_DD2]

The Supreme Court was asked to rule on Law. Which it did. Personally I think Scotland would be down the toilet in 5 years after Independence. The country takes far more for the Union than it gives and would take 20 years to join the EU, even before taking into consideration the massive outflow of capital because the remainder of the Union wold strip out everything. The vote ws held for Independence and the population voted for the Union. That's life. I've seen plenty of elections go the way I'd not have preferred but that's life. As with all things, you have your opinion and I mine. If I were a Scot I'd keep quiet and carry on letting someone else pay for Defence, Universities, Health etc but then I'm not Scottish (thank f'ck)

And despite all of that, Westminster seems determined to hold on to this parasite. I know the current government is an absolute shambles, but surely shedding a section of the electorate that costs a fortune and gives you very little electoral backing would be an easy win for them.

Odd behaviour.

It's almost as if your post is full of inaccuracies and misrepresentation.

 

[Brew_DD2]

Oh good. Glad to see you have at least pinned your true colours to the mast and can be disregarded as someone to take seriously in this conversation.

Queen and country.