Fermzilla Dry-hopping via PCO 1881 Ball Valve - Stuck Pellets

[muppix]

Howdy Folks. In my ongoing efforts to reduce DO ingress I'm using a small plastic bottle and ball valve to hold the hop pellets atop my Fermzilla during fermentation, deploying them with a deft turn of the valve when it's time to dry-hop. That was the theory anyway - in practice those pellets get stuck in the neck of the bottle almost immediately and require moderate amounts of violence to dislodge.



A number of improvements suggest themselves, so in order to feasibility:

1. Crush the pellets before adding them to the bottle, or
2. Find a perfect cylinder (i.e. neckless bottle) so there's nowhere for them to get stuck, or
3. Also throw in a pokey thing with a magnet at one end so that I can jiggle the hops without opening the bottle, or
4. Devise a self-contained, remote controlled auger, or
5. ...

Obviously #1 is the easiest solution here, but I can't help thinking that while the hops are still in pellet form they won't lose too much of their hoppy goodness to the CO2 that I've used to purge oxygen from their temporary home, and that crushing them will increase their surface area and cause them to surrender much of their aroma.

Any thoughts on that?

 

[foxy]

Howdy Folks. In my ongoing efforts to reduce DO ingress I'm using a small plastic bottle and ball valve to hold the hop pellets atop my Fermzilla during fermentation, deploying them with a deft turn of the valve when it's time to dry-hop. That was the theory anyway - in practice those pellets get stuck in the neck of the bottle almost immediately and require moderate amounts of violence to dislodge.



A number of improvements suggest themselves, so in order to feasibility:

1. Crush the pellets before adding them to the bottle, or
2. Find a perfect cylinder (i.e. neckless bottle) so there's nowhere for them to get stuck, or
3. Also throw in a pokey thing with a magnet at one end so that I can jiggle the hops without opening the bottle, or
4. Devise a self-contained, remote controlled auger, or
5. Open up the fermenter and put the hops in.

Obviously #1 is the easiest solution here, but I can't help thinking that while the hops are still in pellet form they won't lose too much of their hoppy goodness to the CO2 that I've used to purge oxygen from their temporary home, and that crushing them will increase their surface area and cause them to surrender much of their aroma.

Any thoughts on that?

Click to expand.

 

[dcbrookes]

I found this item pretty useless and sold mine on Ebay!

 

[muppix]

1. Open up the fermenter and put the hops in.

That’s the way I’ve been doing it until now, but I’m keen to see if I can make the hop aroma and taste last a bit longer - typically it tails off after 10 days or so. You’ve probably been there and done that, hence the comment, but I’m gonna have a fiddle anyway.

I found this item pretty useless and sold mine on Ebay!

Wish I’d known. Postage to my location was nearly as much as the item itself. Out of interest, what made you give up on the ball valve, and how do you dry-hop now?

 

[foxy]

That’s the way I’ve been doing it until now, but I’m keen to see if I can make the hop aroma and taste last a bit longer - typically it tails off after 10 days or so. You’ve probably been there and done that, hence the comment, but I’m gonna have a fiddle anyway.

As I was going up the stair I saw a problem which wasn't there, It wasn't there again today, I wish that problem would go away. Brewing is no place for old men. They fiddle too much.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I'm not sure that crushing them would help. I have a feeling hop powder would get clogged just as much as the pellets.

Is that a bottle with a standard thread on the top? If so, you could use something with a more tapered neck, like a 500ml coke bottle. Less chance of clogging in the bottle neck that way

 

[dcbrookes]

That’s the way I’ve been doing it until now, but I’m keen to see if I can make the hop aroma and taste last a bit longer - typically it tails off after 10 days or so. You’ve probably been there and done that, hence the comment, but I’m gonna have a fiddle anyway.



Wish I’d known. Postage to my location was nearly as much as the item itself. Out of interest, what made you give up on the ball valve, and how do you dry-hop now?

If I dry hop, which I don't do very often, I release the pressure in the fermenter, remove the cap and drop the hops in and then re-pressurise after refitting the cap.

 

[Buffers brewery]

As I was going up the stair I saw a problem which wasn't there, It wasn't there again today, I wish that problem would go away. Brewing is no place for old men. They fiddle too much.

“Fiddling” delivers “Progress”…… and who are you calling old?

 

[Agentgonzo]

“Fiddling” delivers “Progress”…… and who are you calling old?

Fiddling is also part of the fun!

 

[Buffers brewery]

Howdy Folks. In my ongoing efforts to reduce DO ingress I'm using a small plastic bottle and ball valve to hold the hop pellets atop my Fermzilla during fermentation, deploying them with a deft turn of the valve when it's time to dry-hop. That was the theory anyway - in practice those pellets get stuck in the neck of the bottle almost immediately and require moderate amounts of violence to dislodge.



A number of improvements suggest themselves, so in order to feasibility:

1. Crush the pellets before adding them to the bottle, or
2. Find a perfect cylinder (i.e. neckless bottle) so there's nowhere for them to get stuck, or
3. Also throw in a pokey thing with a magnet at one end so that I can jiggle the hops without opening the bottle, or
4. Devise a self-contained, remote controlled auger, or
5. ...

Obviously #1 is the easiest solution here, but I can't help thinking that while the hops are still in pellet form they won't lose too much of their hoppy goodness to the CO2 that I've used to purge oxygen from their temporary home, and that crushing them will increase their surface area and cause them to surrender much of their aroma.

Any thoughts on that?

You could try and get a "sample" preform rather than use a bottle. They hold about half a litre. Don't know if that would be big enough?

You might be able to get a couple if you write to a UK supplier pretending to be a student doing a project which isn't far from the truth

 

[muppix]

You could try and get a "sample" preform rather than use a bottle. They hold about half a litre. Don't know if that would be big enough?
You might be able to get a couple if you write to a UK supplier pretending to be a student doing a project which isn't far from the truth

Good call. I do have some of those knocking about in my Geocaching kit, but it hadn’t occurred to me to see if the thread was compatible. Cheers!

 

[foxy]

“Fiddling” delivers “Progress”…… and who are you calling old?

I don't knock it, I think using the old grey cells keeps one alive. Time you stop thinking you start dying.
It's just that looking at the oxygen bogeyman only started 5 years ago with the introduction of cheap closed vessel fermenters. We are all aware of what oxygen does, that is why we are careful, but even before 5 years ago I never heard anyone saying I have an oxidised beer.
Now it would seem if one hasn't got one of the above vessels and not having a closed transfer then the beer will oxidise.

 

[hoppyscotty]

think the new tri clamp lid and hop bing is the best solution. Personally I hop in a keg by transferring the beer into a purged keg after fermentation and get great results that way.

Oxidisation is a real thing in hop forward beers and heavily dry hopped beers. I’ve experienced it personally. Can oxidise a beer instantaneously. May take a few weeks for the oxidation to ruin the beer and make it unfrinkable but you’ll see affects immediately in loss of colour and hop aroma and flavour.

With these cheap PET pressure capable fermenters it is relatively inexpensive to totally keep oxygen out of your brew and I do it as a point of best practice now.

 

[foxy]

think the new tri clamp lid and hop bing is the best solution. Personally I hop in a keg by transferring the beer into a purged keg after fermentation and get great results that way.

Oxidisation is a real thing in hop forward beers and heavily dry hopped beers. I’ve experienced it personally. Can oxidise a beer instantaneously. May take a few weeks for the oxidation to ruin the beer and make it unfrinkable but you’ll see affects immediately in loss of colour and hop aroma and flavour.

With these cheap PET pressure capable fermenters it is relatively inexpensive to totally keep oxygen out of your brew and I do it as a point of best practice now.

You will never totally keep oxygen out as a home brewer. Reduce yes but never keep it out.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Pressure transferring from fermenter to purged keg and serving from a tap. Not sure how air can get in? If you’re bottling then yes, can be very difficult, but still not impossible. Just take a hell of a lot of care and attention to detail.

I oxidised a NEIPA by not purging the co2 line before I hooked it upto the keg on my tap set up and the short column of air in the line pushed into the keg was enough to oxidise the beer. So I’ve experienced first hand how fast oxidation can impact a heavily hopped beer. That was a lesson learned. Have since had heavily dry hopped NEIPA’s and pale ales on tap for a few months without any sign of oxidation. Some loss of the hop aroma to the increasing keg headspace as you drink the beer, but the colour of the last glass still as bright as the first.

 

[foxy]

Pressure transferring from fermenter to purged keg and serving from a tap. Not sure how air can get in? If you’re bottling then yes, can be very difficult, but still not impossible. Just take a hell of a lot of care and attention to detail.

I oxidised a NEIPA by not purging the co2 line before I hooked it upto the keg on my tap set up and the short column of air in the line pushed into the keg was enough to oxidise the beer. So I’ve experienced first hand how fast oxidation can impact a heavily hopped beer. That was a lesson learned. Have since had heavily dry hopped NEIPA’s and pale ales on tap for a few months without any sign of oxidation. Some loss of the hop aroma to the increasing keg headspace as you drink the beer, but the colour of the last glass still as bright as the first.

Do you know how to purge a keg to be completely free of oxygen?

 

[Buffers brewery]

Notwithstanding all that’s been said about keeping air/oxygen away from the brew when dry hopping I use a conventional lidded bucket for fermentation and in the past had to lift said bucket out of the brew fridge in order to peel the lid off to add the dry hops then re-seal and lift bucket back into the fridge. All very physical with a high risk of spillage or worse, a catastrophic dropped bucket. Now I fix my dry hopper under the bucket lid, fill with dry hops, close and fit to the bucket after pitching the yeast. Once the bucket is in the fridge it stays there until it’s empty (after transfer). The dry hops are added by simply moving a couple of magnets on the lid, takes literally a second.
While dry hopping gadgets may reduce (significantly) exposure of the brew to oxygen, for me that’s an added benefit, the main benefit is the simplicity of the method.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Do you know how to purge a keg to be completely free of oxygen?

It’s quite straight forward, completely fill with starsan or other sanitised product so it’s pouring out of the PRV. I use a garden pressure spray after pouring to push starsan in to purge the dip tube and completely fill that last bit of keg headspace and push it out with some pressure out of the PRV. Then push out with CO2. A fully purged keg.

When I’m dry hopping in the keg I’ll do that first, then put a few psi of positive pressure on the keg, slowly take the lid off so as not to disturb the gas and pull air in. The positive pressure ensures only co2 pushing out of the keg as you take the lid off. You can see this as the co2 smoke exits the keg as you do this due to positive keg pressure. Slowly lower the hop vessel into the keg, or I guess you could pour in loose hops. I use a stainless hop tube. Close up the keg. Now you’re bound to have pulled in some air so purge several times and let settle for a good hour or more. Purge several times again and repeat this process as many times you feel is necessary. Then you have a purged keg. Certainly sufficient to prevent oxidation for the time it takes to drink the beer. In the example I give above about how easy and quick it is to oxidise a beer with a very small amount of air this method has worked very well for me with highly hopped beers with no detectable oxidation. If air was present it would have an impact in these styles of beer immediately, and rendering the beer undrinkable within a couple or few weeks in my experience.

My point is with a small investment in some kit and especially if you’re kegging, then oxygen free handling of the beer from fermenter to glass is pretty straight forward.

 

[Davegase]

Howdy Folks. In my ongoing efforts to reduce DO ingress I'm using a small plastic bottle and ball valve to hold the hop pellets atop my Fermzilla during fermentation, deploying them with a deft turn of the valve when it's time to dry-hop. That was the theory anyway - in practice those pellets get stuck in the neck of the bottle almost immediately and require moderate amounts of violence to dislodge.



A number of improvements suggest themselves, so in order to feasibility:

1. Crush the pellets before adding them to the bottle, or
2. Find a perfect cylinder (i.e. neckless bottle) so there's nowhere for them to get stuck, or
3. Also throw in a pokey thing with a magnet at one end so that I can jiggle the hops without opening the bottle, or
4. Devise a self-contained, remote controlled auger, or
5. ...

Obviously #1 is the easiest solution here, but I can't help thinking that while the hops are still in pellet form they won't lose too much of their hoppy goodness to the CO2 that I've used to purge oxygen from their temporary home, and that crushing them will increase their surface area and cause them to surrender much of their aroma.

Any thoughts on that?

Do what foxy said open the lid and chuck them in.
If you insist on being fancy, get the tri clamp lid and hop bong !!

 

[foxy]

It’s quite straight forward, completely fill with starsan or other sanitised product so it’s pouring out of the PRV. I use a garden pressure spray after pouring to push starsan in to purge the dip tube and completely fill that last bit of keg headspace and push it out with some pressure out of the PRV. Then push out with CO2. A fully purged keg.

But it isn't fully purged. There will still be 10-12 ppm of oxygen in the water and if the Star San is the foaming sanitizer probably more. If you wanted to really remove the oxygen then boil the water a few times to remove the oxygen then run oxygen free co2 through the water for a few hours.