Fermzilla All Rounder Question

[foxy]

I am not going to comment any more about this after this but you specifically mentioned their product, arguing semantics about not actually mentioning the company, especially after multiple snarky comments a week about Kegland. I will let others form their own conclusions. It is just a shame that you totally ignored the comment about light damage until it was raised by others, it is probably the more useful information for brewers with or thinking about PET vessels.

I can see you dont have a humorous side. Had it been an Apollo I would have said Apollo, it happened to be an All rounder. End of story.

 

[F00b4r]

Well I was going to get a couple of PET fermenters but I will hold fire for the time being. After investigating them further it seems to be a regular occurrence and they do get crud in the spunding valves! But why doesn't the PRV activate. Seems like they are blowing before the set PRV pressure.
View attachment 65523

Overfilling them is not a good idea and can lead to that. You can also put in a trap before the spending valve (using a PET bottle and one of those T pieces and carb caps), although I guess it is still possible the poppets end up being blocked, hence don't overfill them is probably the best advice.
Personally, I think you are probably better just spunding on the last points of gravity for natural carbonation; it means that there is unlikely to be enough pressure generated to cause problems and you can always not do this if the ferment has reached the outlets of the fv. You also know then that you are not changing the yeast profile.
People should be careful when using pressure though, in the same way if e.g. you start using caustic cleaners you should take the appropriate precautions and know what you are doing.

 

[Bolsover Brewer]

Overfilling them is not a good idea and can lead to that. You can also put in a trap before the spending valve (using a PET bottle and one of those T pieces and carb caps), although I guess it is still possible the poppets end up being blocked, hence don't overfill them is probably the best advice.
Personally, I think you are probably better just spunding on the last points of gravity for natural carbonation; it means that there is unlikely to be enough pressure generated to cause problems and you can always not do this if the ferment has reached the outlets of the fv. You also know then that you are not changing the yeast profile.
People should be careful when using pressure though, in the same way if e.g. you start using caustic cleaners you should take the appropriate precautions and know what you are doing.

I am a chemical engineer so well aware of the dangers of pressure vessels, but a PRV is there to prevent accidents happening whether from poor design, manufacturing or user error. Just scouring social media it seems to have been happening far to often without the problem being addressed.
If a PRV is rated to 35 PSI then a vessel should have a higher rating so the PRV activates first. The astonishing thing is some are exploding at 10 PSI!
I am told there are 3 manufacturers, but the instances on social media indicate that the problematic ones seem to be from one source.
I can see the short term answer would be to fit a lower rating PRV like the 10 PSI PRV. For the amount of these vessels which has exploded it is a wonder no one has been seriously injured.

 

[Davegase]

Well I was going to get a couple of PET fermenters but I will hold fire for the time being. After investigating them further it seems to be a regular occurrence and they do get crud in the spunding valves! But why doesn't the PRV activate. Seems like they are blowing before the set PRV pressure.
View attachment 65523

I understand that you are an experienced brewer ! So I don't think you would be likely to make the mistakes that would lead to such failures. Using pressure equipment does require extra thought but does have benefits. It doesn't suit every style of brew as I'm sure many will point out !
But if you follow the manufacturers guidelines and tips from others on the forum you can't go wrong.
Cleaning posts , prv's and spunding is easy.

 

[F00b4r]

I would also be surprised if they are exploding at 10 PSI, unless they have been severely compromised by eg aggressive chemicals. Some people are using poppet based PRV devices that are not accurate and seemingly can jam open/shut, so that 10 PSI may actually be MUCH higher in reality; if people are also using dirty diaphragm based ones there may be issues too. I also wouldn’t trust people setting pressure via welding regulators etc, that are often used. Ultimately though if you gunk up your safety device it isn’t going to work; there lots of examples of this or similar bad practice with regard to safety components in the real world. Whichever fermenter I was using at pressure, PET or stainless steel, I would always err on the side of caution, especially as I don’t think that most people have an accurate handle on what the real pressure is that they are using.

 

[Eskdale]

How many manufacturers of these PET fermenters are there?

There are two as far as I know. One is made here in Australia I have two of the Snub Nose fermenters (Australian) and have never heard of any problems with those.
Emma

 

[AngelHomebrew.]

@Bolsover Brewer Did you know we are at Markham Vale?

 

[Bolsover Brewer]

@Bolsover Brewer Did you know we are at Markham Vale?

Yes I know you are local to me. I work in Sheffield and there are 5 or 6 of us who buy as a group. Sadly, I suppose in this day and age it is irrelevant the locality of the home brew store, mail order has no boundaries and the best price wins.

 

[AngelHomebrew.]

Yes I know you are local to me. I work in Sheffield and there are 5 or 6 of us who buy as a group. Sadly, I suppose in this day and age it is irrelevant the locality of the home brew store, mail order has no boundaries and the best price wins.

Yeah very true. Just had to check when saw Bolsover

 

[nhenson22]

Well I seem to have opened a can of worms here!

I am already aware of the advice on not using a PRV as a spunding valve so would never have gone down this route.

For now, I have got the batch ferementing at room temperature out of my ferementation fridge.
Once fermentation is finished I am going to go ahead and cold crash without spunding valve, but will be removing and checking pressure regularly to make sure it is not increasing during the chilling phase. I am pretty confident this should be a safe way to do it!

Once this batch is done, will look into options on how to fit into the fridge with spunding valve still attached. Some good advice given on that, so thank you!

 

[RoomWithABrew]

It won't increase in pressure during the cold crash unless it's still fermenting as the CO2 goes into solution better.
For example recent ferment of mine using kveik on a quick lager, let it fall in temp as ferment finished and the pressure was 32 psi at 22c for 2.6vol target.
Then cold crashed to 3 celsius and pressure fell to 13 psi but still at 2.6 vols.
Play around with this calculator and you can see how the numbers change with temperature
https://drhansbrewery.com/beercarbonationcalculator/

 

[Davegase]

It won't increase in pressure during the cold crash unless it's still fermenting as the CO2 goes into solution better.
For example recent ferment of mine using kveik on a quick lager, let it fall in temp as ferment finished and the pressure was 32 psi at 22c for 2.6vol target.
Then cold crashed to 3 celsius and pressure fell to 13 psi but still at 2.6 vols.
Play around with this calculator and you can see how the numbers change with temperature
https://drhansbrewery.com/beercarbonationcalculator/

I would second that ! And even if it were still fermenting the sudden drop in temperature would stop fermentation in its tracks ! I've been using the same carbonation calculator for about a year with great success!

 

[Bolsover Brewer]

I would also be surprised if they are exploding at 10 PSI, unless they have been severely compromised by eg aggressive chemicals. Some people are using poppet based PRV devices that are not accurate and seemingly can jam open/shut, so that 10 PSI may actually be MUCH higher in reality; if people are also using dirty diaphragm based ones there may be issues too. I also wouldn’t trust people setting pressure via welding regulators etc, that are often used. Ultimately though if you gunk up your safety device it isn’t going to work; there lots of examples of this or similar bad practice with regard to safety components in the real world. Whichever fermenter I was using at pressure, PET or stainless steel, I would always err on the side of caution, especially as I don’t think that most people have an accurate handle on what the real pressure is that they are using.

Well today a few of us researched PET fermenters, Face book groups etc and I can understand what you are saying, user error, low quality spunding valves, even if they were past a use by date. But logically, taking in all the possibilities which can go wrong, why is it that the only ones with problems are the ones coming from China?
We have also looked up those from Australia, they seem to have a range in their arsenal, including PET kegs. They were released in 2017 so they have stood the test of time and the problems don't seem to occur in their range.
The downside is they are not available here.

I understand that you are an experienced brewer ! So I don't think you would be likely to make the mistakes that would lead to such failures. Using pressure equipment does require extra thought but does have benefits. It doesn't suit every style of brew as I'm sure many will point out !
But if you follow the manufacturers guidelines and tips from others on the forum you can't go wrong.
Cleaning posts , prv's and spunding is easy.

I have no interest in fermenting under pressure, I would just like to transfer to my kegs so being able to do that straight from the fermenter would be a bonus for me.

 

[Davegase]

Well today a few of us researched PET fermenters, Face book groups etc and I can understand what you are saying, user error, low quality spunding valves, even if they were past a use by date. But logically, taking in all the possibilities which can go wrong, why is it that the only ones with problems are the ones coming from China?
We have also looked up those from Australia, they seem to have a range in their arsenal, including PET kegs. They were released in 2017 so they have stood the test of time and the problems don't seem to occur in their range.
The downside is they are not available here.


I have no interest in fermenting under pressure, I would just like to transfer to my kegs so being able to do that straight from the fermenter would be a bonus for me.

With you being an engineer, I'm sure you can do a closed transfer to your kegs without investing in a pressure fermenter.
The only reason I bought a pressure fermenter was to give me options, like naturally carbonating the beer before I transfer to keg or bottle saving on CO2.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I have 2 all rounders one i have used twice, after each brew i dismantle the spunding valve and boil it along with the ball locks and prv and lid, also i never go above 10psi, forgot to say don't boil the gauge

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Why not get a keykeg or two to play with, they are widely available in the UK. You can remove the bag and modify the top to take a connector and ferment / transfer under pressure or use as a keg. Or just use the keykeg connector and fit a dip tube to it.
They are pressure rated well above 35 psi and have a second skin on the outside to add safety.
Connector I mention is in first picture, not a keykeg but another type of plastic keg that has a sankey connector ( I didn't have a sankey connector at the time)
Second photo shows you need to " adjust " the keykeg top to get that connector on or you can use the keykeg without modification.
Bottom picture shows a third type of plastic keg, I like these the best, 24 litres sankey connector, solid and easy to clean they are from italy. Last picture is mid purge and pre pressurise the kegs.

 

[Bolsover Brewer]

With you being an engineer, I'm sure you can do a closed transfer to your kegs without investing in a pressure fermenter.
The only reason I bought a pressure fermenter was to give me options, like naturally carbonating the beer before I transfer to keg or bottle saving on CO2.

Chemical engineer is a little different. But you are right I could make something, we were tossing around some ideas yesterday which would work with the HDPE buckets, or we fork out for stainless 5 at the moment possibly 6..

 

[Davegase]

Chemical engineer is a little different. But you are right I could make something, we were tossing around some ideas yesterday which would work with the HDPE buckets, or we fork out for stainless 5 at the moment possibly 6..

We both have some sort of engineering background, I retired 2 years ago and got back into home brewing with a plastic bucket, but after seeing a lot of videos of people using pressure fermenters it sparked my interest. They are a lot more expensive so if you don't want to experiment with pressure there's no need to research out which ones are exploding and which ones aren't .
If you fit a tap and a gas post to your bucket lid you can use it for a blow off tube and capture gas using a balloon for use during suckback in cold crash.
And once you've purged your keg with CO2 you can connect the tap to your liquid post on the keg and the gas posted on the keg to the gas posted on the bucket lid to do a closed gravity transfer.

 

[Eskdale]

I use both companies Keg King and Keg Land as far as fermenters go I use Keg King, they are quality and of similar price. I use a Keg Land Blowtie as my spunding valve with integrated gauge at $12.00 Australian they are cheap and suit the purpose.

 

[Cheyne_brewer]

… and it’s all made in China, imported by Kegland et al. Don’t forget Kegland have their own store on AliExpress.