Electric cars.

[Chippy_Tea]

BBC news
Tesla's shares have fallen by more than 40% since the start of this year


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Tesla has cut its prices again in a number of major markets - including the US, China and Germany - as the electric car giant run by multi-billionaire Elon Musk faces falling sales.

The move comes after it reported a sharp fall in its global vehicle deliveries in the first three months of this year.

A price war has been intensifying between electric vehicle (EV) makers, with particularly fierce competition coming from Chinese firms.

Tesla is due to report financial results for the first quarter of 2024 after the US market close on Tuesday.

In a post on social media platform X, external, formerly Twitter, Mr Musk said: "Tesla prices must change frequently in order to match production with demand."

In China, the firm cut the starting price of the revamped Model 3 in China by 14,000 yuan (£1,562) to 231,900 yuan.

Prices of the Model Y, Model X and Model S vehicles in the US were reduced by $2,000 (£1,616) on Friday.

There were also price cuts in many other countries in Europe, the Middle East and Africa, according Reuters, the news agency.

BBC News has contacted Tesla for comment.

The company triggered an EV price war over a year ago when it aggressively cut prices at the expense of profit margins.

The firm has been slow to refresh its ageing models while rivals in China, such as BYD and Nio, have been rolling out cheaper models. Chinese smartphone maker Xiaomi also launched its first EV last month.

Last week, Tesla announced plans to lay off more than 10% of its global workforce.

Over the weekend, Mr Musk said he would postpone a planned trip to India, where he was due to meet Prime Minister Narendra Modi, due to "very heavy Tesla obligations".

On Friday, the firm recalled thousands of its new Cybertrucks over safety concerns.

It is because their accelerator pedals currently risk getting trapped by the interior trim, increasing the possibility of crashes.

Tesla's shares have fallen by more than 40% since the start of this year

 

[JockyBrewer]

Insurance tends to be in line with the "quick" versions of the equivalent ICE car but less than the daft ones - for instance the Electric Mini is insurance groups 20-26, which is the same as the Cooper (20) and Cooper S (26) but less than the JCW (27-30). The electric Fiat 500 is 15-17, whereas the ICE versions top out at 15 for the 95/105bhp versions and the old Abarth version was 26-27. So that may be a bit of a shock if you don't normally drive a quick car.

Teslas are another story though, as Thatcham don't rate their app-based security and a few other things so put even the Model 3 at groups 48-50.

The other problem with many EVs affecting insurance premiums, and particularly Tesla, is the high rate of insurance write offs due to the way the cars are being manufactured.

Tesla has pioneered 'gigacasting' of the chassis, where instead of welding/bolting together dozens to hundreds of pieces of steel to build a chassis, they use very large presses to mould steel into a few large parts that snap together. It's much cheaper to produce once you get past the cost of the presses, and keeps weight down too.

The problem is that you can't repair small bits of the casting. Ding one bit of the chassis and the car has to be written off. I think that will change, but it's a symptom of the rethink manufacturers are having over the fundamental design of cars.

 

[old dog new tricks]

This issue has affected other cars like the Audi A2, Lotus Elise etc as the tubs are bonded structural alloys.

Sadly this may become the norm, also the huge amount of radar detection equipment is an issue, some manufacturers have made styling choices ie lights in what was the bumper corners for exmple.

in the interest of fairness not all EVs are hugely more expensive to insure, some are only 10% higher, this will become easier as the numbers increase and hopefully repair costs subside.

As much as new EVs are struggling the used market is very strong and prices are holding firm or rising as demand outstrips supply.

 

[JockyBrewer]

in the interest of fairness not all EVs are hugely more expensive to insure, some are only 10% higher, this will become easier as the numbers increase and hopefully repair costs subside.

Yes, the lack of repair skills out there is the other problem, but again that will go away.

I'd expect the mass car market shifting to using LFP batteries will help too as they are cheaper and less explodey but will also limit cars to something similar to your average family ICE car.

As much as new EVs are struggling the used market is very strong and prices are holding firm or rising as demand outstrips supply.

I think we're still stuck in a bit of the limited supply of the 3 year old cars thanks to covid, although things are getting better.

 

[old dog new tricks]

Yes, the lack of repair skills out there is the other problem, but again that will go away.
I'd expect the mass car market shifting to using LFP batteries will help too as they are cheaper and less explodey but will also limit cars to something similar to your average family ICE car.
I think we're still stuck in a bit of the limited supply of the 3 year old cars thanks to covid, although things are getting better.

Well i have been trying to see and test drive a Kona 64kw via Arnold Clark average turn around time from advertising to sale is 2 days the fastest selling used car they currently have.
Kia Niro non existent and commands a much higher premium £17.5k / £280 per month
MG 4 starting prices up here £18.5k / £290 per month too rich for my budget for an MG

Definitely a big regional difference in price looked on autotrader UK wide the prices are much lower

 

[Cwrw666]

Yes, the lack of repair skills out there is the other problem, but again that will go away.

A problem a lot of garages have is that they can spend quite a lot getting one of their mechanics trained up for EVs only to have them move elsewhere as they now have a very marketable skill. I suppose this will go away as more and more of them get trained up to match the rise in EV numbers.

 

[Nicks90]

This is where we need a bit of a reality check , as the vast majority of an EV does NOT require any EV training.
Suspension, brakes, anti lock / traction control systems, bodywork, various externally facing sensors/radars/cameras, all the interior and switches.... None are connected to the high voltage system. They're all 12v or purely mechanical

Only time you need specific EV training is for the battery and motors - both of which have shown themselves to be massively reliable in nearly every EV produced

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

Just going back again to the cost of public chargers (sorry), I know that it has been argued that the high cost of installing these rapid chargers and the higher cost of non domestic electricity “kind of” justifies the fact that the cost to use these is high, anywhere between 65p (if you are really lucky) and £1.00 kwh or more but why is it that Tesla chargers are far more reasonable?
No one has spent more on charging infrastructure than them and yet, I’ve just come back from a road trip around the south, west and north coast of wales including Snowdonia. I charged at home before leaving then at five separate Tesla superchargers throughout the 9 day trip. 1st stop Bristol Cribbs (44p kwh), 2nd stop Swansea (40p kwh), 3rd stop Aberystwyth (37p kwh), 4th stop Flint (35p kwh) 5th stop Northampton (40p kwh).

 

[AlBrew]

Just going back again to the cost of public chargers (sorry), I know that it has been argued that the high cost of installing these rapid chargers and the higher cost of non domestic electricity “kind of” justifies the fact that the cost to use these is high, anywhere between 65p (if you are really lucky) and £1.00 kwh or more but why is it that Tesla chargers are far more reasonable?
No one has spent more on charging infrastructure than them and yet, I’ve just come back from a road trip around the south, west and north coast of wales including Snowdonia. I charged at home before leaving then at five separate Tesla superchargers throughout the 9 day trip. 1st stop Bristol Cribbs (44p kwh), 2nd stop Swansea (40p kwh), 3rd stop Aberystwyth (37p kwh), 4th stop Flint (35p kwh) 5th stop Northampton (40p kwh).

Agreed, although I charged at Barrow town centre this week for 37ppkWh, said 22kW but only got 11, 4 chargers none of them occupied.

Used the Octopus Electorverse app for the first time, they seem to have deals with most of the other networks, my 37p included an 8% octopus discount.

Didn't need to charge but was curious how the Electorverse app would work, I was surprised at how easy it was compared to messing about with other apps in the past.

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

Agreed, although I charged at Barrow town centre this week for 37ppkWh, said 22kW but only got 11, 4 chargers none of them occupied.

Used the Octopus Electorverse app for the first time, they seem to have deals with most of the other networks, my 37p included an 8% octopus discount.

Didn't need to charge but was curious how the Electorverse app would work, I was surprised at how easy it was compared to messing about with other apps in the past.

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You’ll probably find your car can only accept up to 11 kw AC which is why that’s all you got. I did actually get a free charge on route in Portmeirion where there were four 22 kw chargers. Only other non Tesla experience on the trip was in a hotel car park where I thought I’d make use of a BP pulse unit (even though it was 89p kwh) but after downloading the app and it securing £45 on my debit card the charger failed to connect and said to try again. Which I’d did, another £45 secured on my card so total £90 and it failed again so I left it.

 

[hoppyscotty]

This is where we need a bit of a reality check , as the vast majority of an EV does NOT require any EV training.
Suspension, brakes, anti lock / traction control systems, bodywork, various externally facing sensors/radars/cameras, all the interior and switches.... None are connected to the high voltage system. They're all 12v or purely mechanical

Only time you need specific EV training is for the battery and motors - both of which have shown themselves to be massively reliable in nearly every EV produced

And yet in the official repair manuals the first thing you're told to do before starting any of these tasks on ICE cars is to disconnect the battery. I'm sure most people don't do this, I certainly didn't back when I did all my own car maintenance, but if as part of the health and safety this is required with a normal car starter battery you can bet your bottom dollar its even more important with an EV. These cars haven't been around that long and in very low numbers. Wind on a few years when there will be a larger number of beaten up used and abused cars with all sorts of damage, wear and tear done to all components of the car then the chances of there being issues with the battery and electrical system are much higher. Nothing lasts for ever and everything degrades over time and use and electrical components are no different.

Not that this is an issue at all...good mechanics will be getting regular and routine training for a great many things I'm sure so this is just one more thing they will need to be trained on.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Are tesla chargers cheaper because of the amount of cars they have sold and brand loyalty.

 

[AlBrew]

Are tesla chargers cheaper because of the amount of cars they have sold and brand loyalty.

I think they're just not making as much profit on it. If they price their car buying customers out of the fuel to drive them they won't have any customers so I'm guessing it's in their interests to make it as affordable as possible. All of the other charging networks are in it for the ££'s and are probably already acting like an oil cartel as far as pricing goes.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

why is it that Tesla chargers are far more reasonable?
No one has spent more on charging infrastructure than them

Mostly it's because charging is not how Tesla make their money - to start with their chargers were free, because what they were mostly interested in was selling more cars. So they price their charging attractively because it helps them sells cars which are worth much more to them, in the same way a supermarket may sell beer at cost price, if it tempts people to come in and do their £100 weekly shop there rather than at the competition.

Also as you say - they have economies of scale. An underappreciated point at the moment is that interest rates have shot up, but Tesla doesn't need bank loans because it can finance its charging network out of its £21.5bn cash.

 

[Leon103]

Is there a market for some sort of app that allows general public to use personal chargers?

For example, I have a charger at home and if not in use someone could come and connect and via a app they can be charged slightly more than I pay.

* this may exist already.

 

[AlBrew]

Is there a market for some sort of app that allows general public to use personal chargers?

For example, I have a charger at home and if not in use someone could come and connect and via a app they can be charged slightly more than I pay.

* this may exist already.

At least one exists already, ZapMap.

I used it for a holiday to Blackpool once, guy just wanted £15 a day I think to park on his drive and charge, was almost cheaper than parking for a day.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

Are tesla chargers cheaper because of the amount of cars they have sold and brand loyalty.

Tesla are starting to open up more and more of their superchargers for use by drivers of other makes of EV. The cost is higher than for Tesla drivers (eg, Flint Supercharger is 30p kwh for Tesla and 61p kwh for non Tesla) but that is still a lot cheaper than many other EV rapid chargers. I wonder if, as this expands further, that other providers will reduce their prices?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Slight exaggeration, but a reminder that certain newspapers are quite relaxed about making up propaganda against electric cars :
https://www.lse.ac.uk/granthaminsti...ory-about-electric-vehicles-causing-potholes/

 

[AlBrew]

My news feed (Google) is littered daily with all sorts of ev related scaremongering nonsense. I know it's all targeted and I've previously shown an interest in ev's but it prime click bait so I assume many others are being pushed it. I don't click on them now, even just to read how ridiculous they are.