Electric cars.

[Nicks90]

Although there’s a guy out there that’s done 1.2 million miles in his 2014 Tesla Model S, and he’s gone through 14 motors and 4 battery packs.

https://insideevs.com/news/699413/highest-mileage-tesla-model-s-3-batteries-14-motors/amp/

Which is exactly the point. Each of his battery packs has lasted 300k
Actually it's nearer 350k as the first battery pack was actually faulty and replaced very early on under warranty

But Tesla over engineer the batteries for a reason. And this will become the norm...it's his intention to have those batteries repurposed in to storage after the car dies. So even if a bunch of the cells have died, they rest of the battery cells can be reused again

 

[JockyBrewer]

Which is exactly the point. Each of his battery packs has lasted 300k
Actually it's nearer 350k as the first battery pack was actually faulty and replaced very early on under warranty

But Tesla over engineer the batteries for a reason. And this will become the norm...it's his intention to have those batteries repurposed in to storage after the car dies. So even if a bunch of the cells have died, they rest of the battery cells can be reused again

Indeed - in a 2014 car. Things have come on in leaps and bounds in the 10 years since, and will continue to do so for the next decade or more.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

It's worth pointing out that the average car in the UK is scrapped at around 120,000 miles from memory, although cars are being kept longer for various reasons (low use during Covid, high prices due to the semiconductor shortage etc).

And since the US has a federal law mandating an 8-year minimum warranty on EV batteries, the typical warranty is 8 years or 100-150k. Toyota guarantee at least 70% for a million km (620k miles) - which emphasises the point, batteries tend not to go "bang" in the way that eg a head gasket does, it's more a question of gradual degradation like you see with your phone battery. But since old cars tend to do fewer miles that's less of a problem.

I don't really buy Musk's vision for lithium car batteries being repurposed for fixed storage unless there's some dramatic changes in technology like capacitors becoming usable in cars. The energy density of lithium batteries makes them too valuable for applications like car batteries whereas we now have several chemistries that can offer cheap fixed storage if you don't mind them taking up more space than lithium, so I think economics will drive most lithium into being recycled for new vehicles.

 

[Nicks90]

That's very true, and I believ Tesla opened a huge battery recycling site next door to their giga factory in Texas. Idea being when volumes get to critical mass and age, they will recycle batteries to recover all the materials needed for the factory next door
But where cells have not degraded there is no point ripping them apart and spending time/effort recycling them back in the raw materials to be built in to new batteries.
It's easier to take that pack of cells and install them in a new housing for power storage in either one of their household power walls or the super storage units they are installing all over the world to harness excess solar. I think Australia has an enormous storage unit...

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Old green street cabinets will be converted into electric vehicle (EV) charging points, according to BT Group.

The metal cabinets are traditionally used to store broadband and phone cabling, but many are coming towards the end of their lifespans.
The first converted cabinet will be installed in Scotland within weeks, under a pilot programme.
BT hopes up to 60,000 could be converted, which would help tackle a shortfall in electric car chargers.
The government's ambition is to increase the number of charging points from more than 50,000 today to 300,000 by 2030 but Zapmap figures show nearly a third of all UK charging points are currently in London.
People have complained about the lack of charging ports in some areas and that some do not work or are unreliable.
This pilot project by BT will explore how this solution could be scaled up to address the lack of chargers on UK roads, something that motoring groups have said is holding back Britain's electric car revolution.

Both cabinets that are still providing broadband to individual households and those that have been decommissioned are able to be used to support the new EV charging points.
Currently, the boxes contain old technology which will soon be defunct because of the nationwide rollout of full fibre broadband connections.
Engineers will be able to retrofit the cabinets with a device that enables renewable energy to be shared to a charge point alongside the existing broadband service with no need to create a new connection, because they are already connected to a power source.
The green lockers that are set to be decommissioned will have one charge point per cabinet, which provides two charging sockets.
They also have a battery backup so existing broadband services should not be be disrupted during installation.
As the boxes become decommissioned, more charging points can be added.
The first location will be in East Lothian, with further pilots to roll out across the UK in the coming months.

Tom Guy, CEO of Etc., the start-up and digital incubation arm at BT Group, said that this solution was a "huge step" in addressing the barriers customers face.
"Working closely with local councils in Scotland and more widely across the UK, we are at a critical stage of our journey in tackling a very real customer problem that sits at the heart of our wider purpose to connect for good," he said.
Stuart Masson from automotive website The Car Expert welcomed the initiative.
"Harnessing existing street furniture is a great way to increase the number of public EV charging points without further adding to clutter along our footpaths," he said.
"Making this even more valuable, many of these green street cabinets are located in residential areas across the UK, including smaller villages and towns, where charging infrastructure is most severely lacking."
The Department for Transport told the BBC that they have committed "hundreds of millions of pounds to expand local charging across England."
Their spokesperson said: "The number of public charge points is rising across the country - increasing by 44% since December 2022.
"We expect the private sector to deliver the majority of charge points and welcome initiatives such as this."
BT is making the announcement at an international tech trade show in Las Vegas. The initiative has been awarded an innovation accolade for outstanding design and engineering at the Consumer Electronics Show.

BBC News

 

[Leon103]

Old green street cabinets will be converted into electric vehicle (EV) charging points, according to BT Group.

View attachment 94526


The metal cabinets are traditionally used to store broadband and phone cabling, but many are coming towards the end of their lifespans.
The first converted cabinet will be installed in Scotland within weeks, under a pilot programme.
BT hopes up to 60,000 could be converted, which would help tackle a shortfall in electric car chargers.
The government's ambition is to increase the number of charging points from more than 50,000 today to 300,000 by 2030 but Zapmap figures show nearly a third of all UK charging points are currently in London.
People have complained about the lack of charging ports in some areas and that some do not work or are unreliable.
This pilot project by BT will explore how this solution could be scaled up to address the lack of chargers on UK roads, something that motoring groups have said is holding back Britain's electric car revolution.

Both cabinets that are still providing broadband to individual households and those that have been decommissioned are able to be used to support the new EV charging points.
Currently, the boxes contain old technology which will soon be defunct because of the nationwide rollout of full fibre broadband connections.
Engineers will be able to retrofit the cabinets with a device that enables renewable energy to be shared to a charge point alongside the existing broadband service with no need to create a new connection, because they are already connected to a power source.
The green lockers that are set to be decommissioned will have one charge point per cabinet, which provides two charging sockets.
They also have a battery backup so existing broadband services should not be be disrupted during installation.
As the boxes become decommissioned, more charging points can be added.
The first location will be in East Lothian, with further pilots to roll out across the UK in the coming months.

Tom Guy, CEO of Etc., the start-up and digital incubation arm at BT Group, said that this solution was a "huge step" in addressing the barriers customers face.
"Working closely with local councils in Scotland and more widely across the UK, we are at a critical stage of our journey in tackling a very real customer problem that sits at the heart of our wider purpose to connect for good," he said.
Stuart Masson from automotive website The Car Expert welcomed the initiative.
"Harnessing existing street furniture is a great way to increase the number of public EV charging points without further adding to clutter along our footpaths," he said.
"Making this even more valuable, many of these green street cabinets are located in residential areas across the UK, including smaller villages and towns, where charging infrastructure is most severely lacking."
The Department for Transport told the BBC that they have committed "hundreds of millions of pounds to expand local charging across England."
Their spokesperson said: "The number of public charge points is rising across the country - increasing by 44% since December 2022.
"We expect the private sector to deliver the majority of charge points and welcome initiatives such as this."
BT is making the announcement at an international tech trade show in Las Vegas. The initiative has been awarded an innovation accolade for outstanding design and engineering at the Consumer Electronics Show.

BBC News

I thought of you when I read this.

 

[AlBrew]

I thought of you when I read this.

I thought the same when I saw this;



Could be an option for many.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I thought the same when I saw this;
Could be an option for many.

I an not surprised using power from lamp posts is destined to fail they war not designed for charging EV's, the on street parking charger he installs in the video is fine but if you live in a street like mine where there are more cars than parking spaces how do you guarantee you can park outside your own home to charge your car?

The only option for the 30% of UK resident who do not have off street parking is something like this that had been posted several times in the thread.

 

[AlBrew]

I an not surprised using power from lamp posts is destined to fail they war not designed for charging EV's, the on street parking charger he installs in the video is fine but if you live in a street like mine where there are more cars than parking spaces how do you guarantee you can park outside your own home to charge your car?

The only option for the 30% of UK resident who do not have off street parking is something like this that had been posted several times in the thread.

Try as I might I couldn't find a picture of Joey Boswell parking his Jag after moving the police cones,.. but that.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Strikes me as wasteful over engineering.

I can't agree with that, For those who hand their cars back every few years maybe. I want a car that I know will if good for 10 years plus.

If a manufacturer only made a car with a 3-4 year lifespan before expensive to replace parts went pop would they go out of business due to a bad reputation even though they were say 30% cheaper to own?

A couple of real life examples:

skoda 130gl - really cheap engine oil pump failed. engine seized 32k miles 4 yr old.
yugo 55A - 4 years 30k - oil leaks after 3 year - big bill to replace seals - reoccurred 2 year later - got shot.
Seat ibiza clxi 4 years - 32k miles good powertrain, exhast rotted in 2 years , rust on rear hatch in 18 months
hyundai accent 48K - 5 years this was ok but rustproofing required topping up every 2 years
daihatsu yrv - 4 years 40K - bullet proof car, but an accident magnet - involved in 4 accidents 2 rear ends at traffic lights, 2 side swipes when parked. unlucky car - first and only light silver car we had.
daihatsu sirion 12+ years - 86K - died due to unrectified pothole damage. (could have been saved if brought to my attention in time)
mazda cx-5 - 8 years - 78k - sold in excellent working order.
suzuki splash - 13 years still in family - 100k+ coil springs are a little weak they can break, not an expensive replacment.
our current 2 japanese cars are only 3 & 5 years old but not intending to replace them. (I'd be wary of nissan thought the previous Micra was cheaply engineered and built in the subcontinent) but ,mazda, honda, toyota, suzuki do all have good levels of reliability.

I might succumb and lease a car with poor long term reliability as long as it says out of the garage for the 3 years I'd be leasing it. Just to have something a bit more 'glam and cosseting' or maybe not

 

[dad_of_jon]

It looks like steel may be ditched in favour of aluminium.


View attachment 94374

Audi did that with their A2? that was the last Audi apart from the R8 that I drooled over. Audi stopped the A2 due to lack of sales although the cost to make an aluminium car had a bearing. I couldn't afford an A2 at the time I bought a Daihatsu YRV instead and thus started my love affair with Japanese cars.

 

[Old Fart At Play]

Audi did that with their A2? that was the last Audi apart from the R8 that I drooled over. Audi stopped the A2 due to lack of sales although the cost to make an aluminium car had a bearing. I couldn't afford an A2 at the time I bought a Daihatsu YRV instead and thus started my love affair with Japanese cars.

I had an A2. Great car, but - touch controls instead of buttons. Worst though was fuel consumption - despite being so light I used to get less than 40 mpg.

 

[MattH1973]

Audi did that with their A2? that was the last Audi apart from the R8 that I drooled over. Audi stopped the A2 due to lack of sales although the cost to make an aluminium car had a bearing. I couldn't afford an A2 at the time I bought a Daihatsu YRV instead and thus started my love affair with Japanese cars.

that's right - all Ally cars are not new. Audi has done it for a while (more than 20 years iirc) as DOJ says, same for certain Jaguars and recent Range Rovers. Weight is such an important factor in terms of energy consumption it's remarkable it isnt more common.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Well it's all about trade offs and the net result of several trade offs that are simultaneously happening. Aluminium is marginally lighter, but more expensive to make and very very costly to repair and ultimately drives up write off's, so from a cost of ownership basis isn't necessarily the best option. And often the weight benefit is significantly overshadowed with the ever increasing requirements for safer and safer cars...the real reason cars have got bigger and heavier is 100% due to improvements in crash protection. Easiest way to make cars safer is increase the distance between the inhabitants and the point of impact.

So cars probably have been getting lighter relatively speaking considering safety requirements driving bigger and heavier cars. Even with steel cars it has driven the use of better and better ( and more expensive) Steel alloys with better strength to weight ratio's to be used instead of the near flimsy and brittle Pig Iron that cars used to be made from. And considering the increase in size and weight of cars over time the efficiency of engines has been a real impressive story...taking my wife's previous car - a BMW X3 2.0litre diesel, weighing in at a hefty 1,800 kg, with an external size larger than the first generation Ford Transit van, fitted out with plush leather with all the bells and whistles and gadgetry you can think of and it was still returning near as makes no difference 50mpg without even trying and could beat that on a long journey if you took a care - thats probably double what I was getting out of my first car...a lowly MK3 Escort 1.3l poplar plus that was so light a stiff breeze could blow onto its roof.

 

[MattH1973]

Well it's all about trade offs and the net result of several trade offs that are simultaneously happening. Aluminium is marginally lighter, but more expensive to make and very very costly to repair and ultimately drives up write off's, so from a cost of ownership basis isn't necessarily the best option. And often the weight benefit is significantly overshadowed with the ever increasing requirements for safer and safer cars...the real reason cars have got bigger and heavier is 100% due to improvements in crash protection. Easiest way to make cars safer is increase the distance between the inhabitants and the point of impact.

So cars probably have been getting lighter relatively speaking considering safety requirements driving bigger and heavier cars. Even with steel cars it has driven the use of better and better ( and more expensive) Steel alloys with better strength to weight ratio's to be used instead of the near flimsy and brittle Pig Iron that cars used to be made from. And considering the increase in size and weight of cars over time the efficiency of engines has been a real impressive story...taking my wife's previous car - a BMW X3 2.0litre diesel, weighing in at a hefty 1,800 kg, with an external size larger than the first generation Ford Transit van, fitted out with plush leather with all the bells and whistles and gadgetry you can think of and it was still returning near as makes no difference 50mpg without even trying and could beat that on a long journey if you took a care - thats probably double what I was getting out of my first car...a lowly MK3 Escort 1.3l poplar plus that was so light a stiff breeze could blow onto its roof.

i think that argument could be flipped - on the basis regulatory requirements tend to make cares heavier (which you are obviously right about), it becomes all the more important to try and offset the impact that has on energy consumption by saving weight where possible. We are, after all (we keep being told) in a climate emergency so the weight reduction impact on energy consumption should really matter.

And to give an example of how significant this can be, The (steel) range rover L322 weights approx 2700kg. The subsequent model, the L405, weighs somewhere between 2160 and 2360 [not sure why this range is so broad] but that's around 20% less. If I had the choice, I would certainly want a lighter car rather than a heavier one, considering the fuel consumption and handling benefit.

 

[JockyBrewer]

Thinking out loud here...

Historically most people (and therefore manufacturers) have only looked at the purchase price of cars, not so much the running costs. Shifting to all aluminium would certainly push up the purchase cost due to the extra energy required to process it into a usable form.

Take it with a pinch of salt, but this report from 2014 suggests that it would only take 12,000 miles to recoup the energy cost of building an SUV with aluminium instead of steel: Aluminum Vehicles Save More Energy Than It Takes To Build Them

For example do you think people would pay 20% more on a car if they were going to recoup that and be making savings in 20,000 miles? I guess the shift to EVs is showing that at least some people would, although the experiential difference going from ICE to EV is greater than it would be going from Steel to Aluminium.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I now have a better understanding of this. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214785322021125

 

[MattH1973]

I now have a better understanding of this. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S2214785322021125

thanks for posting - but I must confess i am a bit baffled as to why scientists felt the need to do an abstract study when Audi and Jag were doing this in real life, 2 decades ago ! At least the study agrees its a good idea !

 

[Chippy_Tea]

A brand new substance, which could reduce lithium use in batteries, has been discovered using artificial intelligence (AI) and supercomputing.
The findings were made by Microsoft and the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL), which is part of the US Department of Energy.
Scientists say the material could potentially reduce lithium use by up to 70%.
Since its discovery the new material has been used to power a lightbulb.
Microsoft researchers used AI and supercomputers to narrow down 32 million potential inorganic materials to 18 promising candidates in less than a week - a screening process that could have taken more than two decades to carry out using traditional lab research methods.
The process from inception to the development of a working battery prototype took less than nine months.
The two organisations achieved this by using advanced AI and high-performance computing which combines large numbers of computers to solve complex scientific and mathematical tasks.
Executive vice president of Microsoft, Jason Zander, told the BBC one of the tech giant's missions was to "compress 250 years of scientific discovery into the next 25".
"And we think technology like this will help us do that. This is the way that this type of science I think is going to get done in the future," he said.

The problem with lithium​

Lithium is often referred to as "white gold" because of its market value and silvery colour. It is one of the key components in rechargeable batteries (lithium-ion batteries) that power everything from electric vehicles (EVs) to smartphones.
As the need for the metal ramps up and the demand for EVs rises, the world could face a shortage of the material as soon as 2025, according to the International Energy Agency.
It is also expected that demand for lithium-ion batteries will increase up to tenfold by 2030, according to the US Department for Energy, so manufacturers are constantly building battery plants to keep up.
Lithium mining can be controversial as it can take several years to develop and has a considerable impact on the environment. Extracting the metal requires large amounts of water and energy, and the process can leave huge scars in the landscape, as well as toxic waste.
Dr Nuria Tapia-Ruiz, who leads a team of battery researchers at the chemistry department at Imperial College London, said any material with reduced amounts of lithium and good energy storage capabilities are "the holy grail" in the lithium-ion battery industry.
"AI and supercomputing will become crucial tools for battery researchers in the upcoming years to help predict new high-performing materials," she said.
But Dr Edward Brightman, lecturer in chemical engineering at the University of Strathclyde, said the tech would need to be "treated with a bit of caution".
"It could throw up spurious results, or results that look good at first, and then turn out to either be a material that is known or that can't be synthesised in the lab," he said.
This AI-derived material, which at the moment is simply called N2116, is a solid-state electrolyte that has been tested by scientists who took it from a raw material to a working prototype.
It has the potential to be a sustainable energy storage solution because solid-state batteries are safer than traditional liquid or gel-like lithium.
In the near future, faster charging solid-state lithium batteries promise to be even more energy-dense, with thousands of charge cycles.

How is this AI different?​

The way in which this technology works is by using a new type of AI that Microsoft has created, trained on molecular data that can actually figure out chemistry.
"This AI is all based on scientific materials, database and properties," explained Mr Zander.
"The data is very trustworthy for using it for scientific discovery."
After the software narrowed down the 18 candidates, battery experts at PNNL then looked at them and picked the final substance to work on in the lab.
Karl Mueller from PNNL said the AI insights from Microsoft pointed them "to potentially fruitful territory so much faster" than under normal working conditions.
"[We could] modify, test and tune the chemical composition of this new material and quickly evaluate its technical viability for a working battery, showing the promise of advanced AI to accelerate the innovation cycle," he said.

BBC News

 

[dad_of_jon]

A brand new substance, which could reduce lithium use in batteries, has been discovered using artificial intelligence (AI) and supercomputing.
The findings were made by Microsoft and the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL), which is part of the US Department of Energy.
Scientists say the material could potentially reduce lithium use by up to 70%.
Since its discovery the new material has been used to power a lightbulb.
Microsoft researchers used AI and supercomputers to narrow down 32 million potential inorganic materials to 18 promising candidates in less than a week - a screening process that could have taken more than two decades to carry out using traditional lab research methods.
The process from inception to the development of a working battery prototype took less than nine months.
The two organisations achieved this by using advanced AI and high-performance computing which combines large numbers of computers to solve complex scientific and mathematical tasks.
Executive vice president of Microsoft, Jason Zander, told the BBC one of the tech giant's missions was to "compress 250 years of scientific discovery into the next 25".
"And we think technology like this will help us do that. This is the way that this type of science I think is going to get done in the future," he said.

The problem with lithium​

Lithium is often referred to as "white gold" because of its market value and silvery colour. It is one of the key components in rechargeable batteries (lithium-ion batteries) that power everything from electric vehicles (EVs) to smartphones.
As the need for the metal ramps up and the demand for EVs rises, the world could face a shortage of the material as soon as 2025, according to the International Energy Agency.
It is also expected that demand for lithium-ion batteries will increase up to tenfold by 2030, according to the US Department for Energy, so manufacturers are constantly building battery plants to keep up.
Lithium mining can be controversial as it can take several years to develop and has a considerable impact on the environment. Extracting the metal requires large amounts of water and energy, and the process can leave huge scars in the landscape, as well as toxic waste.
Dr Nuria Tapia-Ruiz, who leads a team of battery researchers at the chemistry department at Imperial College London, said any material with reduced amounts of lithium and good energy storage capabilities are "the holy grail" in the lithium-ion battery industry.
"AI and supercomputing will become crucial tools for battery researchers in the upcoming years to help predict new high-performing materials," she said.
But Dr Edward Brightman, lecturer in chemical engineering at the University of Strathclyde, said the tech would need to be "treated with a bit of caution".
"It could throw up spurious results, or results that look good at first, and then turn out to either be a material that is known or that can't be synthesised in the lab," he said.
This AI-derived material, which at the moment is simply called N2116, is a solid-state electrolyte that has been tested by scientists who took it from a raw material to a working prototype.
It has the potential to be a sustainable energy storage solution because solid-state batteries are safer than traditional liquid or gel-like lithium.
In the near future, faster charging solid-state lithium batteries promise to be even more energy-dense, with thousands of charge cycles.

How is this AI different?​

The way in which this technology works is by using a new type of AI that Microsoft has created, trained on molecular data that can actually figure out chemistry.
"This AI is all based on scientific materials, database and properties," explained Mr Zander.
"The data is very trustworthy for using it for scientific discovery."
After the software narrowed down the 18 candidates, battery experts at PNNL then looked at them and picked the final substance to work on in the lab.
Karl Mueller from PNNL said the AI insights from Microsoft pointed them "to potentially fruitful territory so much faster" than under normal working conditions.
"[We could] modify, test and tune the chemical composition of this new material and quickly evaluate its technical viability for a working battery, showing the promise of advanced AI to accelerate the innovation cycle," he said.

BBC News

This is fascinating as we have invented chemistry, by that I mean the science of chemistry had grown from human discoveries. What if there are undiscovered truths about chemical compositions in the real world we've not resolved? We are giving AI the best dataset we can clearly, what if there is some flaw in chemistry we're not aware of? - we've clearly not done bad with our existing knowledge so far, it still makes me wonder how we could set AI to look for configurations not yet known to science in this respect. Is it just checking all the undiscovered combinations of molecules and presenting us with a shortlist worthy of further attention?