Details on using beer gas.

[RoomWithABrew]

Or if you want that nitro effect without the physics, serve the stout cask style ( with a breather- heresy) but use a stout spout on your beer engine.

 

[Fezzer]

Just thinking if you Gas up with normal CO2 and then use pure nitrogen it may be a cheaper way. There are also adapter so you don’t need two regulators. I think I will prob end using your idea over gassy CO2

I use 1 of those adapters mate and just a co2 regulator. Never had any problems. I wouldn't carb it with C02 personally I'd just use ya 70/30 big bottles go quite a long way think I fill mine probably once or twice a year. This is the adapter I bought Sealey 120/432102 Bull Nose Adaptor Sealey 120/432102 Bull Nose Adaptor : Amazon.co.uk: Business, Industry & Science

 

[peebee]

... serve the stout cask style ( with a breather- heresy) ...

It has been noted! Fortunately for you, heretic burning season is over until Spring next year 'cos not enough folk turn up to watch due to the cold and wet and then we can't get the hot-dog vendors to turn up. Anyway, the guys say you are too far away to be bother coming out to fetch you.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

It has been noted! Fortunately for you, heretic burning season is over until Spring next year 'cos not enough folk turn up to watch due to the cold and wet and then we can't get the hot-dog vendors to turn up. Anyway, the guys say you are too far away to be bother coming out to fetch you.

I'm flying back on Friday so you can rustle up the clan and I will be around for a few weeks.

 

[bez]

I force carbonate with 70/30 at 40 psi. I roll keg on floor for 2 minutes let sit for 1 hour with gas connected then disconnect and roll it again for 1 min 30. Then let sit for another hour and pour. It will get better after a couple of days tho if you can wait. I only use Co2 for ciders. Everything else I put on 70/30 View attachment 79180

Thanks. I’m going to try it first with mild.

 

[bez]

You are right! Many CO2 regulators can easily withstand the considerably higher pressures of N2 cylinders. But! Are you sure you can tell the difference between one that can and one that can't? Just remember, bits of unsuitable regulator fly about with quite a bit of velocity with 2000-3000 PSI behind them.

Don't forget all the babble about "partial pressure". Your stout carbonated with 100% CO2 may start off a bit more carbonated than you wish. As the N2 mixes with the CO2 in the keg. the carbonation will get less and less and will probably end up with less carbonation than desired.

Would you still
Use a similar line ie 2 metres of 3/16 to deliver beergas as you would with CO2

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Would you still
Use a similar line ie 2 metres of 3/16 to deliver beergas as you would with CO2

No point as the restrictor plate in stout tap acts as the "choke" to the flow.

 

[bez]

No point as the restrictor plate in stout tap acts as the "choke" to the flow.

What do you suggest.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

What do you suggest.

See how you go with current line length and shorten if needed.

 

[Martin Kernick]

Yes anditdoes give a nitro feel to your beer but eventually it loses its co2 carbonation which is good for stout but not so good lager and ipa etc

Yes, that's my experience too. My perception is that nitrogen actually changes the taste of the beer - I don't know whether there's some science behind that, but my tastebuds tell me it does. That change seems quite suitable in a stout though.

 

[The Baron]

I carbed with CO2 and then put it on pub gas. It does change something in the mouthfeel and I think it is that that changes the taste(if it does but seems to).
As I have said the only problem with pub gas is the beer was carbed on CO2 and it slowly changes the CO2 balance in the beer as it is dispensed IMO

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I carbed with CO2 and then put it on pub gas. It does change something in the mouthfeel and I think it is that that changes the taste(if it does but seems to).
As I have said the only problem with pub gas is the beer was carbed on CO2 and it slowly changes the CO2 balance in the beer as it is dispensed IMO

Shouldn't do if you carb to the same vols as the beer gas is set at. Will be balanced.

 

[peebee]

... My perception is that nitrogen actually changes the taste of the beer ...

You might be picking on the wrong gas. Nitrogen is pretty inert and tasteless ... whereas carbon dioxide ... CO2 dissolves to create carbonic acid, acid being one of the four (five if you want to believe that stuff) basic "tastes". Acid equals "sharp", not really wanted at all with most beers, and CO2 is often responsible for metallic flavour perceptions. And using "mixed gas" will steadily reduce the amount of carbon dioxide in the beer (remember all that babble about "partial pressures" I was babbling about earlier in this thread). Less carbonic acid flavours/tastes and, hey presto, you start tasting beer again.

Nitrogen is often thought to be the reason for the "creamy" and "smooth" sensations in beer it's used in, but it's not, it's the reduction in the amount of CO2.

You will please the CAMRA die-hards; they'd been trying to put out that message for eons. And Guinness, who fronted the mixed gas explosion, they chose to dilute the CO2 for a reason (the main reason being sell more Guinness!).

 

[Martin Kernick]

You might be picking on the wrong gas. Nitrogen is pretty inert and tasteless ... whereas carbon dioxide ... CO2 dissolves to create carbonic acid, acid being one of the four (five if you want to believe that stuff) basic "tastes". Acid equals "sharp", not really wanted at all with most beers, and CO2 is often responsible for metallic flavour perceptions. And using "mixed gas" will steadily reduce the amount of carbon dioxide in the beer (remember all that babble about "partial pressures" I was babbling about earlier in this thread). Less carbonic acid flavours/tastes and, hey presto, you start tasting beer again.

Nitrogen is often thought to be the reason for the "creamy" and "smooth" sensations in beer it's used in, but it's not, it's the reduction in the amount of CO2.

You will please the CAMRA die-hards; they'd been trying to put out that message for eons. And Guinness, who fronted the mixed gas explosion, they chose to dilute the CO2 for a reason (the main reason being sell more Guinness!).

You make good points. You're certainly right that nitrogen is particularly insoluable in water, but beer is not just water. From what I can gather, the soluability increases in an ethanol/water mixture but whether this should be enough to alter flavours, I couldn't say. What I can say is that I perceive a change in flavour. It's certainly possible that it's a complex interraction between, on the one hand mouth-feel and on the other a certain level of carbonation you actually want in lighter beers but (perhaps) can do without in darker ones. A totally flat beer tastes wrong too (in a slightly different way from a 70/30 pressurised one).

I'm a fan of the pub pint with it's low levels of carbonation but still with some condition on the tongue. Draught-flow stuff, like, say, John Smiths, has, what I'm calling 'that nitrogen taste', it doesn't seem to me that it's simply down to mouth feel, it may be down to different levels of carbonation but I would expect that John Smiths on draughtflow contains roughly the same amount of carbonation as a barrel of real ale - yet it doesn't taste the same somehow. I find that same 'nitrogen taste' if I pressurise an English pale ale with 70/30 in my kegerator. Back in the day I found the same with draught-flow Boddingtons.

What I'm saying is that when you have a complex mixture of chemicals, like you do in beer, it isn't just a case of saying "Well nitrogen doesn't dissolve in water, so how can it alter the flavour?". I'll grant you that you are probably right that, technically, what I'm tasting isn't nitrogen itself, but my subjective perception is that pressurisation with nitrogen changes the taste of lighter coloured beers in a not-good way, wheras it is fine, even desirable, with darker ones.

 

[The Baron]

All I can say is the same beer on Hand Pull, CO2 and Nitrogen/Beergas do have different mouthfeel which in turn gives a different perceived taste IMO

 

[peebee]

All I can say is the same beer on Hand Pull, CO2 and Nitrogen/Beergas do have different mouthfeel which in turn gives a different perceived taste IMO

Hand-pull? That would be interesting. The temperature of "hand-pull" would be about 13-14 degrees ("cellar temperature", although I'm happier with it a bit warmer) which isn't very conducive to dissolving much N2. But you can get sub-atmospheric-pressure amounts of CO2 in the beer ... even more like "Real Ale" than just keeping the beer under a scrap of CO2.

I wrote all that stuff in my "treatise" (download from signature below) about serving with mixed gas, but it's pure speculation as I'm unlikely to try it for real.

... saying "Well nitrogen doesn't dissolve in water, so how can it alter the flavour?" ...

I didn't say that! Although I'm not a diver, I am aware of the dangers of nitrogen coming out of solution in your blood as hydrostatic pressure drops and not giving it enough time to dissipate, so you end up ... well ... sort of ... dead? Nitrogen does dissolve in water, but 'taint easy.

Low temperature (as well as high pressure) does make a difference which is why Guinness spent a fortune convincing everyone to drink their stout so stupid cold! They were pretty successful about it too.

But I'm still of the opinion nitrogen does nothing for the flavour, the reduction of CO2 does that. Guinness don't go to all that effort to dissolve nitrogen for flavour (I don't think?), they do it for the shaving cream heads and swirly patterns in the glass. (Taste? That isn't what helps to sell Guinness! Fortunately, the cold kills the taste).

 

[Martin Kernick]

Hand-pull? That would be interesting. The temperature of "hand-pull" would be about 13-14 degrees ("cellar temperature", although I'm happier with it a bit warmer) which isn't very conducive to dissolving much N2. But you can get sub-atmospheric-pressure amounts of CO2 in the beer ... even more like "Real Ale" than just keeping the beer under a scrap of CO2.

I wrote all that stuff in my "treatise" (download from signature below) about serving with mixed gas, but it's pure speculation as I'm unlikely to try it for real.


I didn't say that! Although I'm not a diver, I am aware of the dangers of nitrogen coming out of solution in your blood as hydrostatic pressure drops and not giving it enough time to dissipate, so you end up ... well ... sort of ... dead? Nitrogen does dissolve in water, but 't'aint easy.

Low temperature (as well as high pressure) does make a difference which is why Guinness spent a fortune convincing everyone to drink their stout so stupid cold! They were pretty successful about it too.

But I'm still of the opinion nitrogen does nothing for the flavour, the reduction of CO2 does that. Guinness don't go to all that effort to dissolve nitrogen for flavour (I don't think?), they do it for the shaving cream heads and swirly patterns in the glass. (Taste? That isn't what helps to sell Guinness! Fortunately, the cold kills the taste).

Well I've read your treatise from start to finish. What a comprehensive description of the problems and some ingenious suggestions for answers! A 'must read' that I would recommend to anyone reading through this thread. I don't think I'm going to get into needle valves and bubble chambers, but I definitelty do like the idea of a variable LPG regulator that can keep pressure down to around 2psi - as you say it's difficult to keep pressure at such low levels with the standard regulators. I wonder, could you point me in the direction of a suitable one that I can fit between a CO2 cylinder and a kegerator?

 

[peebee]

Here's a supplier I use:

https://www.gasproducts.co.uk/50-150-mbar-clesse-propane-gas-regulator-brooder.html
Cleese also do a 20-300mbar but they're difficult to find and you don't really need them (but I use them!). Beware, they must not be attached direct to cylinders (max. 16bar input) so use them as "secondary regulators" (downstream of a more "workman" reg). You need a couple of cheap BSP threaded adapters to suit your setup (e.g. BSP to 3/8 pipe).

My regs are permanently plumbed in ... together with the needle valves and bubble counters (they do come in useful!):

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/priming-a-cask.95908/post-1071075