Cost of the boil.

[Sadfield]

Very interesting _ the article on foam that sadfield quotes. It says longer boils reduce foam retention.

How long is long though? As it references Charles Bamforth’s book, who advocates a vigorous 60-90 minute boil, I'd read it as boils that extend into hours. Towards the end of this (45minutes), he talks about transforming LTP proteins in a foam positive way via a vigorous boil.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

The devil is in the details!!

 

[Agentgonzo]

Or I could stir the pot and listen to these guys and not believe in DMS.

https://brulosophy.com/2016/09/05/off-flavor-series-pt-1-dimethyl-sulfide-dms-exbeeriment-results/

"My boiloff rate currently hovers around 1 gallon per hour". For a 5.5 gallon batch, that's still a 8% boil off for a 30 boil and a whopping 21% for their 90 minute boil! . Maybe the much stronger boil achieved all the desired goals by the 30 minute mark. I'd hate to see his gas bill!

 

[Agentgonzo]

Zero DMS is a bold statement! I doubt whether it has ever been done by a master brewer nevermind a novice home brewer.
DMS is part of the flavour of most beers and yes it will be reduced in a 30 minute boil. The lower the boil pH the more DMS is removed, not treating water increases the chance of excess DMS as does hop stands, the longer the wort stands before cooling increases the chance of perceptible DMS.
As I have mentioned before there is more happening in the boil than removing DMS besides hop utilisation, condensing, sterilising it is also important to colloidal stability to boil vigorously and for 60 mins minimum enabling the colloidal spoilers (proteins and polyphenols) to drop out in the hot break.
Some folk want to make beer, and hopefully I am addressing some who want to make good beer.
Getting everything right from water treatment, mash temperatures, vigour and length of boil and correct fermentation temperatures will produce a very good beer with good clarity and good colloidal stability without having to add clearing agents.

Every picture tells a story.
As you can see the foam is made up of large bubbles which will break down quickly leaving a flat looking beer.

View attachment 70182

Fine bubbles and good colloidal stability, lacing the glass throughout.

View attachment 70183

View attachment 70184

Meh. Head retention (and clarity, to be honest) are things that have never seemed that important to me. There are plenty of commercial beers that are hazy, and a lot of English ales (at least in the South) are served without a head. Some of my beers have haze, and in some the head dissipates quickly (most don't). It doesn't bother me as it doesn't affect the flavour, and means I don't need to care about hand washing the glasses as they all just go in the dishwasher. I didn't brew this to prove a point, just to try something different, but I'm also glad that those with an axe to grind feel vindicated.

Anyway, I'm happy with my beers, and I'm happy that you brew beers with the clarity and head that you like . I'm also happy that other people get results they like with their own process.

I'll sign back out of this argumentative thread now and let you get back to your trolling.

 

[Sadfield]

At least that's cleared up one point. Boil vigour matters, IF you do care about all aspects of the end product.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I'll sign back out of this argumentative thread now and let you get back to your trolling.

 

[foxy]

Meh. Head retention (and clarity, to be honest) are things that have never seemed that important to me. There are plenty of commercial beers that are hazy, and a lot of English ales (at least in the South) are served without a head. Some of my beers have haze, and in some the head dissipates quickly (most don't). It doesn't bother me as it doesn't affect the flavour, and means I don't need to care about hand washing the glasses as they all just go in the dishwasher. I didn't brew this to prove a point, just to try something different, but I'm also glad that those with an axe to grind feel vindicated.

Anyway, I'm happy with my beers, and I'm happy that you brew beers with the clarity and head that you like . I'm also happy that other people get results they like with their own process.

I'll sign back out of this argumentative thread now and let you get back to your trolling.

No need to spit the dummy cobber just because someone disagrees with you. You stated that, despite all the empirical evdence to the contrary that boiling with the lid on does not increase DMS in the beer. "The need for an uncovered boil is a myth"

I've experimented with this latest brew.
In theory, "you don't need a rigorous boil" as long as the boil is sufficiently agitating the hops, and "the need for an uncovered boil is a myth" because all the bad volatiles (DMS etc) have a sufficiently low boiling point that they still get driven off past the lid.

Anyway, long story short, I left the lid on the Grainfather today (it still has a 2" hole in it that steam escaped from). With the insulated jacket for the boiler, I ran at 35% power for the boil today.

Let's see how it turned out. (I didn't do this to save money, just curious whether it affects the beer)

I was looking forward to your results, thinking you were going to send a sample to a lab to measure the DMS in the brew.

And here's it in the glass. Certainly no problems with clarity. You can read a newspaper through this beer. Zero DMS as well.

Despite the impossibility, 'Zero DMS as well' How on earth did you arrive at that conclusion?

My beers are generally English ales which calls for clarity, head retention, and almost always body. Due to the competative nature of the Aussie I enter quite a lot of competitions. So I don't defer from appearance.
As I stated in my previous post.

"Some folk want to make beer, and hopefully I am addressing some who want to make good beer."

 

[Agentgonzo]

You stated that, despite all the empirical evdence to the contrary that boiling with the lid on does not increase DMS in the beer. "The need for an uncovered boil is a myth"

No I didn't! I wondered whether statements like that has any merit (tis why I used phrasing like "in theory" and quoted those statements), so brewed differently to see if it made any difference to me.

But I can see now why you got so worked up about it. Anyway, I'm glad that's cleared up.

Anyway. Same beer, different bottle, different glass. Better head than Friday . (Though your head is better)

 

[foxy]

Yesterday I was running my Thermomax at 12C fermenting a Pilsner, I am going to have to run it for about a month at 2C . I have an app on my phone which tells me the cost of running the appliances per day.
I have an Air con on heat cycle (winter here) running 24/7 I have 2 large fridge freezers, one chest freezer and a crash cooling fridge. I baked 2 loaves of bread yesterday so the oven was on full tilt for about one hour.
This was my electricity use for yesterday.
Cant wait to try it on a brew day, the two spikes are when the microwave was switched on.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Electricity seems to be cheap it's the standing charge etc that make the bulk of the bill in our house.

 

[foxy]

I find it cheap with solar, I pay 23 cents per kWh and then they give me back 66 cents per kWh . This is why a labor government should get in from time to time they are useless at maths. When this contract runs out in 2024 I will be getting my whole roof covered with solar plus solar windows. Get a bank of batteries subsidised by 50% (thanks to the labor party) to keep my house powered and sell the rest to the energy companies so they can supply at an inflated cost. The needy who the labor party is supposed to represent ends up paying through the nose. I won't need to dip into my super, I will be making enough money to live off selling electricity!

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

it's the standing charge etc that make the bulk of the bill in our house.

I agree the standing charges are a big factor and one that isn’t talked about either. Only thing we hear about is the price cap. I use gas for heating and hot water and the standing charge is higher than my usage during the summer months.
For both fuels I‘m paying £230 per year before I turn a light on!

 

[RoomWithABrew]

We have solar hot water and so need to turn immersion on about 10 times per year.
Our stats

A bit of use below average for us, bigger use months were with more brewing.
I will put my measuring plug on the Guten next time to get a gauge of energy use.

 

[Sadfield]

I agree the standing charges are a big factor and one that isn’t talked about either. Only thing we hear about is the price cap. I use gas for heating and hot water and the standing charge is higher than my usage during the summer months.
For both fuels I‘m paying £230 per year before I turn a light on!

I recall reading that Martin Lewis had raised this issue with ofgem. That smartmeters and steps to save energy, such as reducing thermostats by 1°C, are pointless if bills are made of standing charges. On suggestion was scrapping or slashing standing charges after a number of years of having an account with energy providers.

 

[foxy]

I recall reading that Martin Lewis had raised this issue with ofgem. That smartmeters and steps to save energy, such as reducing thermostats by 1°C, are pointless if bills are made of standing charges. On suggestion was scrapping or slashing standing charges after a number of years of having an account with energy providers.

Different kettle of fish here, power lines to houses are above ground, the wires have to go through trees. It is the home owners responsibility to keep the branches away from power lines, but off the property it is the providers responsibility. Fires are often caused through the power lines so they are open to being sued over bush fires if it is proved it was the power lines which caused the fire. I don't know about NZ they don't have bush fires like we do here.

 

[MrJay83]

I use a Brewzilla and have a prepay meter. Total for mash & boil last week was about £1.50.

 

[Druncan]

This is brilliantly informative! However, (as ever,,,,) I have approached this from a completely different (nutty) direction.:tinhat:

Prior to Covid I was planning to incorporate energy saving measures in my brewery development. We have an energy savings trust grant/loan for this. It's now nearing completion so I will be sticking a dedicated thread once I get some time to share the pain and pleasure of brewery building.

In summary we now have a 1.85Kw solar thermal (just commissioned) to a 400l HLT @ 50*C currently!! - so I only need to get an extra 20*C to mash (with an Eco7 backup) I have a 5kw PHE to return the heat after the boil. Our system is semi off-grid to protect from our regular power-downs. It now has UPS on the chilling side and will have solar UPS on the solar thermal next. All the heat in the HLT will dump to our domestic hot system as a safety/winter option.

It's early days, but solar thermal certainly seems the best way forward for us.

My brother gave me the best energy tip as a NPower insider - "The only way to save is not to use or lose the energy"

 

[Weizenberg]

Saving energy became a huge issue for breweries in the 80s. What I do is a boil at 103 - 104 Celsius for 10 - 15 minutes (protein / lid off), then it simmers at around 99-98 (30 - 40 minutes / lid on) then back to 103-104 for 10-15 minutes to expell any DMS that might have formed during the previous rest (lid off).

Has a welcome impact on my energy bill

 

[Braumeister]

Unfortunately Standing Charges are required to cover the fixed cost element of supplying electricity, such as maintenance of the network. So that part goes to National Grid. A lot of it is also taxes and charges that go to UK government. Either way the overall cost of electricity is becoming massive, hopefully it subsides soon. Just this week the price has gone up 10%, you can blame Russia for that. On the next price cap change in October we are all screwed.

 

[Crappyfish]

Unfortunately Standing Charges are required to cover the fixed cost element of supplying electricity, such as maintenance of the network. So that part goes to National Grid. A lot of it is also taxes and charges that go to UK government. Either way the overall cost of electricity is becoming massive, hopefully it subsides soon. Just this week the price has gone up 10%, you can blame Russia for that. On the next price cap change in October we are all screwed.

Standing charges are also to compensate big energy companies who took on new customers due to firms collapsing. OFGEM granted the companies the right for US to pay THEM to get costs back. Only the other day British Gas said they made millions more profits due to new customers from failed energy companies. Looks Like the standing charge can be used for profiteering as well.