Corny keg newbie

[Dave008]

Hi people I’m new to using Corny kegs, at present I’ve got 2x Ales and 1x cider barrelled and I’m now waiting to taste them !, I’m using a soda stream gas bottle to dispense which has a gauge that scores onto the bottle then around 2mtr of hose going to the ball lock connector,
What I want to do is have a gauge/ regulator on the bottle to show how much is in it and a regulator for each keg. I’ve seen this and think it will be ok but an expert opinion would be good !! Thanks in advance Dave

https://brandels.co.uk/shop/regulat...dl-3-stage-soft-drinks-regulator-with-gauges/

 

[stz]

You'll need an adaptor to go from soda stream to the standard DIN477 / W21.8-14 / BS341 #8 thread you'll find on most industry regulators. Personally I'd rather go to 'proper' cylinders and just screw that regulator direct to it, but the difficulty in obtaining cylinders might put you off plus the size of them depending on what you've bodged it into.

An adaptor like ...

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Soda-Str...ome-Brew-Beer-Keg-Tank-Regulator/312684905209

Will allow you to use that regulator with a soda stream bottle. You might also find you don't pay much more for a little regulator designed to work with a soda stream bottle (they are very common for aquarium usage) which would give you a 'rough' read out of the gas pressure left and probably contain a needle valve for rough adjustment. You'd still need secondary regulators though if you want individual controls.

On the topic of individual control and that particular regulator you've what looks like an unregulated direct output (marked as carbonator) which is set very high 145psi and two which are adjustable. Because it looks designed for dispensing fizzy drinks I guess the tanks have a high head pressure to carbonate off the regulator plus two lines for dispense. You wouldn't want to run three kegs off this put it that way, the carbonator line is far too high, potentially would explode a corny, would be almost worthless and probably want blocking off or you could buy and fit an additional secondary to it.

On the topic of seeing how much gas is left primary regulator gauges don't tend to be a lot of use. You might think of it as a fuel gauge, but the majority of tanks are top dispensing vapour release. Imagine a tank almost completely full of liquid co2 which remains liquid at ambient temperature because of the immense pressure inside the cylinder, just above this is a vapour layer which is all can boil off and evaporate at these pressures. As the pressure drops (release of gas) the liquid co2 boils off more vapour to equalise the pressure (some of the liquid evaporates). The result is they show an almost constant pressure (gas/pressure equilibrium) until they are pretty much empty of liquid then they drop off to almost nothing rather rapidly. The best way to determine usage with something like a soda stream bottle is by weighing it?

I run all my kegs off a single duel stage regulator. It shows a (worthless) dial for primary pressure and has adjustment and dial for secondary pressure (output). A bunch of 3/8" speed fit and connector T's allow me to plumb in all my kegs and I use a non-return to prevent liquid coming back into the regulator (a risk when you hook very full kegs up in certain orders). Like if I've the bottle turned off and connect a keg which is filled past the gas post and holding pressure it will push beer into the gas lines and if higher than their pressure into other kegs. I tend to serve some beer before connecting up the gas post on new kegs to prevent this, or maintain crazy high line pressure when connecting up kegs which I later back off, but again you can sometimes push beer into other kegs on the same line through the gas lines through pressure differential without non-returns.

Doesn't this setup give me the same pressure on all kegs? Yes. Is this a problem? Not really. I naturally carbonate or force carbonate separate from the dispense system. Non-returns mean they don't 'talk' to each other and share carbonation. Typical temperature and dispense pressure creates an equilibrium of approx 2.3 volumes which means over time some get a bit fizzier, but not a lot because it is like ... 7C absorption without ridiculous differential is REALLY slow at those temperatures (weeks and weeks) and some get a bit flatter, but not much because the beer is already carbonated and again, the differential is very slight, only getting flatter faster as the keg is close to empty and there is more head space in relation to beer.

Think of it this way. A keg carbonated to 2.6 volumes will already be at a pressure of 16psi. I dispense at about 14. As beer leaves the keg no gas enters until it drops below 14 at which point gas maintains a constant 14. co2 will leave the beer to maintain a pressure of 16.

The conversion factor from volumes of CO2 to CO2 by weight (g/L) is 1.96. For example: 2.6 volumes x 1.96 = 5.09 g/l. To convert back to volumes, multiply by 0.51. My keg contains 101.8g of co2 when full of beer carbonated to 2.6 volumes. It can hold onto 90.16g at a head pressure of 13-14. I lose 0.0101395g per litre dispensed to equalise the head space which is 0.005171145 volumes per litre or 0.1034229 over the life of the keg.

I can live with that. I rarely brew anything really fizzy.

 

[Dave008]

Hi STZ thank you for your very informative reply, it all makes very good sense, going through what you’ve said I can get hold of an empty pub bottle but how easy is it to get refilled ? I have an account with BOC for my welding bottles but nowadays they are all bar coded and you must return YOUR bottle, gone are the days when you can swop with your mate because he doesent have an account. Is this the same for pub bottles?. Again thinking of my workshop acetelyne and propane bottles the primary gauge does drop off very quickly when it’s nearing empty and I’m normally aware it’s nearing empty when I’m moving them about by the weight - exactly what you said lol.
I’m going to go with your setup you described a regulator with primary and secondary gauges then split the line with a manifold/ T pieces and non return valves near the end of each line near the barrels.
Up until now I brew Ales and semi sparkling ciders so the pressure would also be of a similar values to have on the same secondary regulator for dispensing.
Prior to dispensing my pressure vessels have been scattered around the house depending on whether they needed warmth to ferment or cold to clear, so they are self carbonating it’s only been when I’m drinking a few more than usual I have had to force carbonate.
Again thank you for sharing your wisdom !!!

 

[Gerryjo]

Hi STZ thank you for your very informative reply, it all makes very good sense, going through what you’ve said I can get hold of an empty pub bottle but how easy is it to get refilled ? I have an account with BOC for my welding bottles but nowadays they are all bar coded and you must return YOUR bottle, gone are the days when you can swop with your mate because he doesent have an account. Is this the same for pub bottles?. Again thinking of my workshop acetelyne and propane bottles the primary gauge does drop off very quickly when it’s nearing empty and I’m normally aware it’s nearing empty when I’m moving them about by the weight - exactly what you said lol.
I’m going to go with your setup you described a regulator with primary and secondary gauges then split the line with a manifold/ T pieces and non return valves near the end of each line near the barrels.
Up until now I brew Ales and semi sparkling ciders so the pressure would also be of a similar values to have on the same secondary regulator for dispensing.
Prior to dispensing my pressure vessels have been scattered around the house depending on whether they needed warmth to ferment or cold to clear, so they are self carbonating it’s only been when I’m drinking a few more than usual I have had to force carbonate.
Again thank you for sharing your wisdom !!!

Hi @Dave008,I have an account with BOC for a 6kg pubsure bottle which will last about a year provided you don't have any leaks.They do accept himebrewers on account and even better since you already have one.£33 a full and £3.50 rental or close to those price's

 

[stz]

I have a couple of places nearby, though not that convenient which will do a bottle for £15 deposit and £10 swap/refill. A bottle lasts me a over a year so I used to prefer that to paying rental. I've accounts with BOC for nitrogen and Energas for propane and co2 as well as a pub bottle supplier who delivers every fortnight. The pub bottles cost £10 to swap, we have two pubs taking them, but I'm not that keen on taking them home because it is technically breaching our contract to do so. BOC worked out very expensive when I last checked, mainly crippling rental making it quite costly. Energas only charge £1.19 a month rental on a bottle and the cost to refill/swap is about £6 so the cost per year for home use was realistic. It even works out slightly cheaper than the pub gas supplier, but they don't deliver so we just pay the slight premium to have them delivered and collected at the pubs. Last time I needed a bottle for home use I actually refilled mine (mostly) off the 150kg food grade ones we use at work. The rental on these is about £19 a month and the cost to refill is £16. We use about 6 a month with two on site at a time so £1,608 a year. Previously I was using 5-6 pub bottles a week at £10 a go so eventually it was a saving going to the big bottles, but required a few infrastructure/safety improvements!

 

[stz]

Also didn't answer what you asked. It is almost impossible to get a random empty cylinder refilled. If you've a cylinder with an in date test certificate on it you might find a fire extinguisher or welding place who will do it, but everybody else will be very wary and forget it if it is some old cylinder without a current test date. Also they usually belong to somebody, you can buy them, but usually they get acquired through 'other' means. It is often more trouble than it is worth to source a random one and the amount of gas you'll get through before the test certificate is up makes it pretty uneconomical to buy a new one. When I started out it was a boon to me to find somewhere with no rental, just a flat deposit and a reasonable price to swap it for a full one. Paying a £15 deposit and having it for a year or so beats getting into £2-3 a month rental even if the price to exchange is a bit more. The only reason I moved away from that is because the places require me to drive into nottingham during weekday office hours and I can never manage it. Energas is very cheap rental, but even then I'm in for £21 a year because of the rent.