Cloudy after fermentation? All grain troubleshooting

[ThreeSheets]

Hi folks,

I was wondering if someone could lend a hand with troubleshooting on cloudiness here.
I used irish moss (super moss), I used immersion cooling, I filtered with nylon netting during transfer to the wort.

It came out clear before pitching the yeast as below shows:

Bottled it after 2 weeks 5 days (controlling temperature of the FV in an water bath between 18-22°C), I was hoping for a very clear result and got quite the opposite:

I drank the sample - tasted good, smelled good and no indication of foreign organisms. What I really wanted was a clear result and nice colour to share with family and friends that don't really understand beer and might be a bit disturbed by non-commercial appearances. Will probably end up drinking it exclusively with the real beer nuts.

If you have any idea it would be greatly appreciated!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The more detailed description below if it helps (but don't waste your time if not required):

0. Rigorous sanitising of all equipment at all stages.
1. The night before - I crushed 5kg pale malt 10 SRM and 1kg Cara malt 3.5 SRM -> Final color 6SRM. Crush seemed okay, little flower, not too coarse, not too fine.
2. 60 minutes mash in a bag 20L strike water @ 74°C - with 10mL of 80% lactic acid in strike water to get to PH=5.2 - Held at about 68°C and stirred mash every 10 minutes.
3. Sparged the bag contents twice, with 5.5L of water each time @ 78°C
4. Boiled in 35g of cascade hop pellets for 60 minutes - Added in 5g of super moss 10 minutes before end of boil
5. Stuck the cooling coil in the wort shortly after and fished out the hop bag. Final kettle vol was 25L. It was a hot day and cold tap wasn't so cold, took perhaps 60 mins to get it down to 28-30°C range. Didn't stir during cooling.
6. Tapped off the wort into the FV, used a nylon net at the end of the hose to filter out some of the flour and fine particulate. Let it splash going in to get a bit of oxygen. Ended up with 23.8L of fermentable product.
7. Waited until 22°C to pitch the yeast - about 6 hours later. The yeast is M15 Empire Ale Yeast (mangrove jacks).
8. 2 weeks 5 days later -> bottled with 170g dextrose mixed in for 2.4 vols CO2.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

ThreeSheets

 

[starseeker]

It almost looks like your sample was taken from the bottom of the fv and you have collected some trub as well ,i would of thought that this will all settle out and clear in a couple of weeks .

 

[Buffers brewery]

Did you cold crash before bottling? If not I agree with @starseeker it'll sort itself out given time in a cool place.

 

[ThreeSheets]

It almost looks like your sample was taken from the bottom of the fv and you have collected some trub as well ,i would of thought that this will all settle out and clear in a couple of weeks .

It very much looks like the bottom, but it's really the whole thing cloudy. As per this photo (in my old FV I use to mix in the dextrose before bottling):

I lifted it onto a high shelf the 24hr beforehand to allow any trub to settle - but the trub barely moved - so I'm guessing it didn't mix that much and cloud the whole thing up?

 

[ThreeSheets]

Did you cold crash before bottling? If not I agree with @starseeker it'll sort itself out given time in a cool place.

I don't have any equipment to cold crash unfortunately.

If it does start clear up I'll let you guys know. I've got one sample in a clear bottle to keep track.

 

[Obadiah Boondoggle]

Why are you in such a rush, beer needs time

Your cloudy beer is exactly what I would expect at the end of fermentation

Give it a few weeks to condition

I have a rule that you need to consider what your OG was above 1000 and give the beer one week for each 10 points above 1000 i.e. 1050 = 5 weeks

Cold crashing is not necessary but will speed up this process

Adding gelatin will also help clear beer

Just relax and have a beer

 

[gyurmaember]

I would blame that 6 hours until it reached the pitching temperature.
I brewed a lager in the first heatwave, and the tap water was too warm, cooled down to 25 ish, then let the glycol chiller do the job overnight, then pitched the yeast. It stayed opaque even after cold crashing and a couple of weeks lagering.

 

[ThreeSheets]

Why are you in such a rush, beer needs time

Your cloudy beer is exactly what I would expect at the end of fermentation

Give it a few weeks to condition

I have a rule that you need to consider what your OG was above 1000 and give the beer one week for each 10 points above 1000 i.e. 1050 = 5 weeks

Cold crashing is not necessary but will speed up this process

Adding gelatin will also help clear beer

Just relax and have a beer

In my defence, my wife is due to give birth in a couple of weeks so I had to rush a little bit this time... I think she'd kill me if I was bottling beer on paternity leave!

I really like that rule - I'll take it into account next time. Is it exclusively for time spent in the FV or do the weeks include bottle conditioning?

I might look into gelatin, I saw papain enzyme too but I think that can affect the head retention!

 

[Obadiah Boondoggle]

In my defence, my wife is due to give birth in a couple of weeks so I had to rush a little bit this time... I think she'd kill me if I was bottling beer on paternity leave!
Yiur
I really like that rule - I'll take it into account next time. Is it exclusively for time spent in the FV or do the weeks include bottle conditioning?

I might look into gelatin, I saw papain enzyme too but I think that can affect the head retention!

Your first Child?

Either way, don't worry - you'll get your life back in 25 years or so

I would, being an old fuddy duddy say after fermentation so yes - in the bottle

You will see a difference in clarity and importantly taste - believe me

Hope all goes well in the birth of a new home brewer

Best wishes and take care

 

[ThreeSheets]

Your first Child?

Either way, don't worry - you'll get your life back in 25 years or so

I would, being an old fuddy duddy say after fermentation so yes - in the bottle

You will see a difference in clarity and importantly taste - believe me

Hope all goes well in the birth of a new home brewer

Best wishes and take care

Yes first one, not even born yet and costs an arm and a leg. I've fallen into the tight yorkshireman role... If he can brew me some beer it's an investment though!

Thanks for the advice and all the best too.

 

[foxy]

Hi folks,

The more detailed description below if it helps (but don't waste your time if not required):

0. Rigorous sanitising of all equipment at all stages.
1. The night before - I crushed 5kg pale malt 10 SRM and 1kg Cara malt 3.5 SRM -> Final color 6SRM. Crush seemed okay, little flower, not too coarse, not too fine.
2. 60 minutes mash in a bag 20L strike water @ 74°C - with 10mL of 80% lactic acid in strike water to get to PH=5.2 - Held at about 68°C and stirred mash every 10 minutes.
3. Sparged the bag contents twice, with 5.5L of water each time @ 78°C
4. Boiled in 35g of cascade hop pellets for 60 minutes - Added in 5g of super moss 10 minutes before end of boil
5. Stuck the cooling coil in the wort shortly after and fished out the hop bag. Final kettle vol was 25L. It was a hot day and cold tap wasn't so cold, took perhaps 60 mins to get it down to 28-30°C range. Didn't stir during cooling.
6. Tapped off the wort into the FV, used a nylon net at the end of the hose to filter out some of the flour and fine particulate. Let it splash going in to get a bit of oxygen. Ended up with 23.8L of fermentable product.
7. Waited until 22°C to pitch the yeast - about 6 hours later. The yeast is M15 Empire Ale Yeast (mangrove jacks).
8. 2 weeks 5 days later -> bottled with 170g dextrose mixed in for 2.4 vols CO2.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

ThreeSheets

Nothing to do with the cloudiness but 10 ml of lactic acid is far too much in 20 litres of water. Did you physically check your pH or just went by predicted?

Sparge water, no mention of acid there? Sparge water sweet spot is a pH of 5.5 pH.

I think you would be far better off getting a fermenting fridge and temperature controller, ferment around 18 C with a temperature probe taped on the side. After a week the yeast will start to drop out. Cold condition/crash at 0-2 C for a couple of days and it will drop clear. When it is clear then is the time to bottle.

Why is it cloudy after being clear, I think your fermenting temperature was to high, forget what the water bath temperature was reading it is the temperature of the inside of the fermenting vessel which matters.

Brewer: Todd Ashman,Titletown Brewing in Green Bay, WI​

Understanding what happens during fermentation when temperatures fluctuate better helps the brewer determine what needs to be done. The quality of the beer and vitality of the yeast both need to be examined.

The pitching temperature of wort depends on the yeast strain — some ale strains routinely start fermenting around 70 ºF (21 ºC) and others start much warmer. Fermentation is exothermic, which means it will create its own heat. Having the ability to cool the fermentation once it starts to take off is an imperative. I’ve heard of fermentations rising in temperature as much as 20 ºF (11 ºC) in six hours. The reality is if you aren’t keeping your fermenters cool, there may be a limit to what you can expect from your brewing efforts. However, since yeast growth and fermentations are exothermic and therefore generate heat, figure that the temperature within the fermenter can be as much as 8 °F (4 ºC) higher than outside of the fermenter during the early days of fermentation. So beers that are fermenting in refrigerators set at 65 °F (18 ºC) are most likely fermenting at about 72 °F (22 ºC).
https://byo.com/article/fermentation-temperature-control-tips-from-the-pros/

 

[Crappyfish]

Hi folks,

I was wondering if someone could lend a hand with troubleshooting on cloudiness here.
I used irish moss (super moss), I used immersion cooling, I filtered with nylon netting during transfer to the wort.

It came out clear before pitching the yeast as below shows:

Bottled it after 2 weeks 5 days (controlling temperature of the FV in an water bath between 18-22°C), I was hoping for a very clear result and got quite the opposite:

I drank the sample - tasted good, smelled good and no indication of foreign organisms. What I really wanted was a clear result and nice colour to share with family and friends that don't really understand beer and might be a bit disturbed by non-commercial appearances. Will probably end up drinking it exclusively with the real beer nuts.

If you have any idea it would be greatly appreciated!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The more detailed description below if it helps (but don't waste your time if not required):

0. Rigorous sanitising of all equipment at all stages.
1. The night before - I crushed 5kg pale malt 10 SRM and 1kg Cara malt 3.5 SRM -> Final color 6SRM. Crush seemed okay, little flower, not too coarse, not too fine.
2. 60 minutes mash in a bag 20L strike water @ 74°C - with 10mL of 80% lactic acid in strike water to get to PH=5.2 - Held at about 68°C and stirred mash every 10 minutes.
3. Sparged the bag contents twice, with 5.5L of water each time @ 78°C
4. Boiled in 35g of cascade hop pellets for 60 minutes - Added in 5g of super moss 10 minutes before end of boil
5. Stuck the cooling coil in the wort shortly after and fished out the hop bag. Final kettle vol was 25L. It was a hot day and cold tap wasn't so cold, took perhaps 60 mins to get it down to 28-30°C range. Didn't stir during cooling.
6. Tapped off the wort into the FV, used a nylon net at the end of the hose to filter out some of the flour and fine particulate. Let it splash going in to get a bit of oxygen. Ended up with 23.8L of fermentable product.
7. Waited until 22°C to pitch the yeast - about 6 hours later. The yeast is M15 Empire Ale Yeast (mangrove jacks).
8. 2 weeks 5 days later -> bottled with 170g dextrose mixed in for 2.4 vols CO2.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

ThreeSheets

I thought it was normal for it to cloud up when the yeast is doing it's work. Isn't that flocculation or am I wrong? I now try to get a hazy beer.

 

[foxy]

I thought it was normal for it to cloud up when the yeast is doing it's work. Isn't that flocculation or am I wrong? I now try to get a hazy beer.

Yep you are wrong. Flocculation is when yeast drops out. Beyond me why some one would try to make a hazy beer! You wouldn't go to the pub and ask for a hazy best bitter! Would you?

 

[Crappyfish]

Yep you are wrong. Flocculation is when yeast drops out. Beyond me why some one would try to make a hazy beer! You wouldn't go to the pub and ask for a hazy best bitter! Would you?

No but if the ipa was hazy wouldn't care. Don't make bitters. Or buy best bitters. Ever had a NEIPA

 

[foxy]

No but if the ipa was hazy wouldn't care. Don't make bitters. Or buy best bitters. Ever had a NEIPA

But the OP isn't making a NEIPA? IPA's should be clear not cloudy.

 

[Crappyfish]

Ok. Not getting into a discussion what should be hazy and what's not. Just got it wrong about flocculation which you put me right on. I thank you for that.

 

[The Baron]

Silly Question and I know it has been in the fermenter for what should have been long enough but it looks like it may be still fermenting to me.
What is the FG

 

[ThreeSheets]

Nothing to do with the cloudiness but 10 ml of lactic acid is far too much in 20 litres of water. Did you physically check your pH or just went by predicted?

Sparge water, no mention of acid there? Sparge water sweet spot is a pH of 5.5 pH.

I think you would be far better off getting a fermenting fridge and temperature controller, ferment around 18 C with a temperature probe taped on the side. After a week the yeast will start to drop out. Cold condition/crash at 0-2 C for a couple of days and it will drop clear. When it is clear then is the time to bottle.

Why is it cloudy after being clear, I think your fermenting temperature was to high, forget what the water bath temperature was reading it is the temperature of the inside of the fermenting vessel which matters.

Brewer: Todd Ashman,Titletown Brewing in Green Bay, WI​

Understanding what happens during fermentation when temperatures fluctuate better helps the brewer determine what needs to be done. The quality of the beer and vitality of the yeast both need to be examined.

The pitching temperature of wort depends on the yeast strain — some ale strains routinely start fermenting around 70 ºF (21 ºC) and others start much warmer. Fermentation is exothermic, which means it will create its own heat. Having the ability to cool the fermentation once it starts to take off is an imperative. I’ve heard of fermentations rising in temperature as much as 20 ºF (11 ºC) in six hours. The reality is if you aren’t keeping your fermenters cool, there may be a limit to what you can expect from your brewing efforts. However, since yeast growth and fermentations are exothermic and therefore generate heat, figure that the temperature within the fermenter can be as much as 8 °F (4 ºC) higher than outside of the fermenter during the early days of fermentation. So beers that are fermenting in refrigerators set at 65 °F (18 ºC) are most likely fermenting at about 72 °F (22 ºC).
https://byo.com/article/fermentation-temperature-control-tips-from-the-pros/

The pH is on the hard side here (7.7). I calculated the pH using Brewer's Friend which came to 15ml at 80%, I thought that was too much, another calc gave me 10ml which made more sense and fits in some ml/gallon ranges I've seen. I did the first sparge with a small amount of acid according to the calc and the second had none. I did a mash test and I think this strip reads between 5.2-5.4 which seems okay:

I am going to scale it back next time though, just because I've done without acid in the past with no issue. Didn't taste any sourness on the first try.

I think perhaps the exothermic reaction heat might have had something to do with it. Couple that with the hot weather and it might be the root cause. Would be interesting to get some data on the W/m³ generated over time to figure out the temperature jump for different mixes.

As much as I'd love to get some decent temperature control I don't think I can justify it yet until I've made a few more brews. I have been controlling the bath temperature but not the beer interior, for now I think I'll try to hold the temperature bath at 18°C or a bit lower next time for pitch and relax it to 20-22°C when the activity starts to reduce a few days later. I think gyurmaember had also mentioned having the same sort of issue with lager - so I'll be a bit more rigorous with temperatures. Next batch planned in winter, so I can definitely get it colder then!

Thanks a bunch! I'll take a look into temp control techniques a bit more.

 

[ThreeSheets]

Silly Question and I know it has been in the fermenter for what should have been long enough but it looks like it may be still fermenting to me.
What is the FG

1.052 on OG and 1.020 on FG. Would have liked to go a bit longer but as previously mentioned didn't have much choice!

 

[The Baron]

I know you are in a rush but you have bottled live wort @ 1.020 this may lead to bottle bombs and the other question is that after 2 weeks 5 days it should really have fermented out