Cloudy after fermentation? All grain troubleshooting

[ThreeSheets]

I know you are in a rush but you have bottled live wort @ 1.020 this may lead to bottle bombs and the other question is that after 2 weeks 5 days it should really have fermented out

For sure, that's also confused me. No activity in the airlock in the final week. My first thought was invasive microorganisms but I tasted enough of it to rule that out.

 

[The Baron]

Basic lesson is that No air lock activity is not a sign of fermentation being finished it is quite clear that the wort was still fermenting with cloudiness and swirling activity.
I think you will learn a lot from this brew which will stand you in good stead for the future

 

[ThreeSheets]

Basic lesson is that No air lock activity is not a sign of fermentation being finished it is quite clear that the wort was still fermenting with cloudiness and swirling activity.
I think you will learn a lot from this brew which will stand you in good stead for the future

I think for sure, all the theory and calcs have been helpful but the actual practice is another thing. Haven't bottled this high before so I'll see what happens in a couple of weeks and put an update.

 

[Braumeister]

Agree with @the baron at 1020 its likely not fully completed fermentation. Rehydration before pitching the yeast would probably help speed up fermentation but either way you’d hope it would be done by 19 days really. If you’ve been regularly testing the gravity and there’s no movement for 3 days at 1020 then it’s strange to finish so high. Probably 1012-1014 would be more likely.

 

[ThreeSheets]

Agree with @the baron at 1020 its likely not fully completed fermentation. Rehydration before pitching the yeast would probably help speed up fermentation but either way you’d hope it would be done by 19 days really. If you’ve been regularly testing the gravity and there’s no movement for 3 days at 1020 then it’s strange to finish so high. Probably 1012-1014 would be more likely.

I haven't thought about rehydration for a while, usually just sprinkle in, I did it ages ago for something like a stout extract kit. Was thinking the gravity reading was maybe indicating a high density because of the cloud? Seeing a bit of transparency come through on the neck of a bottle so maybe it'll drop out.

 

[Braumeister]

I’m not 100% sure if suspended yeast/cloudy beer can affect a gravity reading, but like you I would guess it’s a possibility

 

[The Baron]

I’m not 100% sure if suspended yeast/cloudy beer can affect a gravity reading, but like you I would guess it’s a possibility

No it does not make much difference to the gravity reading if it did Ispindels etc would not work as they are just a floating electronic hydrometer

 

[Braumeister]

Yes I have an ispindel it is the pretty much the same as a hydrometer. From experience I *think* I’ve had a hydrometer reading change due to suspended yeast and also fermentation CO2, but maybe it was something else.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I brewed a batch recently with M15 and it finished up at 1.020. searching on the forums and internet seems to reveal quite a few people with the same situation. Maybe it's a finicky yeast strain?

 

[Justin Dean]

Appreciate you are not able to cold crash but that will definitely help

 

[Pennine]

I just used m15 and have bitching and moaning about it not clearing up as well. Although I have had issues with quite a few beers not clearing. The brown lager I did is nice and clear with 34/70 though so I think it's a yeast thing.

 

[foxy]

The pH is on the hard side here (7.7). I calculated the pH using Brewer's Friend which came to 15ml at 80%, I thought that was too much, another calc gave me 10ml which made more sense and fits in some ml/gallon ranges I've seen. I did the first sparge with a small amount of acid according to the calc and the second had none. I did a mash test and I think this strip reads between 5.2-5.4 which seems okay:

I am going to scale it back next time though, just because I've done without acid in the past with no issue. Didn't taste any sourness on the first try.

I have never seen adding so much acid to a mash anywhere. Are you sure you weren't reading mL per Gallon?
The main buffer in the 20 litres of water is the 6 kg of grain, that is going to bring down the pH quite a lot. Have you not been adding any calcium chloride and sulphate to your water?

 

[peebee]

The pH is on the hard side here (7.7). ...

You've got the wrong idea here. pH of tap water will be controlled by your water authority to be about pH 7-9 and has little to do with "hardness". My water can be over pH8, but at less than 100ppm dissolved solids is very "soft".

As @foxy was saying, pH5.5 is about the sweet spot for sparge water because the water then contains very little "alkalinity". Make it to a point just below 5.0 and it'll contain no "alkalinity", but there is nothing to gain by going past 5.5. It is undesirable to allow the mash to rise above ph5.8 when sparging, as "alkalinity" is a measure of how resistant water is to having pH lowered, reducing "alkalinity" to near nowt means there isn't much (any) chance of your mash rising above pH5.8.

"Alkalinity" and "temporary hardness" (carbonate hardness) is connected, "alkalinity" and "permanent hardness" (mainly calcium and magnesium ions) has little (that's not saying "nothing"!) to do with each other.

 

[peebee]

Yes I have an ispindel it is the pretty much the same as a hydrometer. From experience I *think* I’ve had a hydrometer reading change due to suspended yeast and also fermentation CO2, but maybe it was something else.

Odd, I've been having this conversation over at Jim's forum the last few days ("Pyknometers revisited", yeah, so I've been on that subject again).

Suspended yeast (and any suspended matter not actively "swimming") will not have any effect on hydrometers (or their like) because the matter is suspended, i.e. it shares the same overall density with its surroundings. Think "submarines".

Yeast, being a living entity, is perfectly capable of adjusting its overall density to sink or float as suits it. But such changes will no doubt be beyond our equipment to measure.

 

[Braumeister]

Odd, I've been having this conversation over at Jim's forum the last few days ("Pyknometers revisited", yeah, so I've been on that subject again).

Suspended yeast (and any suspended matter not actively "swimming") will not have any effect on hydrometers (or their like) because the matter is suspended, i.e. it shares the same overall density with its surroundings. Think "submarines".

Yeast, being a living entity, is perfectly capable of adjusting its overall density to sink or float as suits it. But such changes will no doubt be beyond our equipment to measure.

Makes sense thanks!

 

[ThreeSheets]

You've got the wrong idea here. pH of tap water will be controlled by your water authority to be about pH 7-9 and has little to do with "hardness". My water can be over pH8, but at less than 100ppm dissolved solids is very "soft".

As @foxy was saying, pH5.5 is about the sweet spot for sparge water because the water then contains very little "alkalinity". Make it to a point just below 5.0 and it'll contain no "alkalinity", but there is nothing to gain by going past 5.5. It is undesirable to allow the mash to rise above ph5.8 when sparging, as "alkalinity" is a measure of how resistant water is to having pH lowered, reducing "alkalinity" to near nowt means there isn't much (any) chance of your mash rising above pH5.8.

"Alkalinity" and "temporary hardness" (carbonate hardness) is connected, "alkalinity" and "permanent hardness" (mainly calcium and magnesium ions) has little (that's not saying "nothing"!) to do with each other.

Sorry yeah I should have said alkaline rather than hard, different water property... I'm not a chemist.

I think I will reduce the lactic acid addition but a lot of different spreadsheets seem to back up that my source water is high in bicarbonate (274ppm):
Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator - Brewer's Friend
So it should have in theory reduced that down to 61ppm with the addition, which is on the better end for pales... obviously it's all calculation and acidity strips though.

Maybe I'm out of my depth though - the acidity likely didn't help the alpha amylase in the mash, I was probably right in the corner limit being a little over pH5.2 .

 

[peebee]

Sorry yeah I should have said alkaline rather than hard, different water property... I'm not a chemist. ...

Whipee! That almost suggests I was a "chemist"? Well, I did get top marks at "O" Level ...

Two years later I got bottom marks at "A" Level

Now, I barely remember which school it was I went to.



For a while recently my mash pH was coming out as 4.9. And that was with a bucket load of bicarbonate and slaked lime. Never found the reason for it. Now I'm putting in half the bicarbonate "Bru'n Water" suggests. And there is no telling when it changes again (the tap water only has one source - another reservoir built in Wales for the English, but we're allowed a bit of it 'cos the recipients - Birkenhead - didn't really need it).

 

[RoomWithABrew]

@peebee
Sure your pH meter is calibrated correctly and temp corrected. I rarely have added anything to raise a pH, I'd like to get some slaked lime for adjusting water profile for kegs of carbonated water, but it's really difficult to get here and I'm not sure the airline would take kindly to me slipping some into my suitcase. Have to find a friendly chemist in an academic unit or commercial place.

 

[Old Fart At Play]

What baffles me is the fact that 'alkalinity' and 'alkaline' refer to 2 completely separate things

 

[peebee]

@peebee
Sure your pH meter is calibrated correctly and temp corrected. ...

We might live opposite sides of this globe, but I think you know me better than that! Or ... to put it another way, which of my pH meters do you think might be mis-calibrated?

I find Slaked Lime is handy when I find myself putting in loads of bicarbonate. There seems to be a point when adding more bicarbonate becomes ineffective? Probably nonsense, I just start getting impatient, or else something in the calculator over-steps a mark?