If you can put the wine to one side for a few weeks/months i would agree if like me you need to get it bottled soon after its finished fermenting degassing is necessary to aid clearing.
Closed Transfer Wine Making
- Thread starter aero-spaced-out
- Start date
Help Support The Homebrew Forum:
If you can put the wine to one side for a few weeks/months i would agree if like me you need to get it bottled soon after its finished fermenting degassing is necessary to aid clearing.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2013
- Messages
- 4,903
- Reaction score
- 2,347
DISCLAIMER: This is from my own googling and is my take on it. Don't take this as gospel. Please ensure to do your own research if reading this.
I've done a lil bit of research on this and it's what made me think about going with the argon.
It's heavier than air, and purging the bottle with Ar would displace the oxygen rich (relative to no oxygen) atmospheric air in the bottle prior to adding the wine. After the wine has been added and the wine has displaced this layer out of the bottle, it should have a reasonably inert blanket of Ar rich gas between the top of the wine and the opening of the bottle, allowing it to be corked and stay fresh for a longer period.
It's done with CO2 in beer bottles as a preventative measure against oxidation spoiling the beer too.
Although not a perfect displacement as some mixing of the gases will occur, there should be an argon dominant environment in the bottle, and therefore minimising the chance of oxidation in the bottles.
I have seen a product that on the US (I think lol) market that is a 80/20 Ar/CO2 blend which can keep an open bottle of wine fresh for 20 days after opening. As this specific 80/20 blend isn't available to me except in an 83/15/2 blend of AR/CO2/O2 and my goal is to displace as much O2 as possible.
It has been rightly said that there is an uncertainty about the potential for it to affect the flavour profile and aroma of the wine.
Last edited:
Just in case anybody is wondering about what I've been reading that has made me so curious about trying it... I've copied a few links below:
https://winemakermag.com/technique/1308-inert-gases-techniques
https://air-source.com/blog/the-use-of-argon-in-viticulture/
https://morewinemaking.com/articles/Inert_gas_wine
https://gravitywinehouse.com/blog/gas-use-in-the-winery/
"The Home Winemaking Channel" on YouTube has done some videos on it too.
I see that they may relate more to commercial wine making, but just as it was done with things such as pressure fermenting beers etc. we as homebrewers could have a go at adapting our own versions. This particular attempt is probably not going to be overly practical in the long run but again, for the sake of a bit of craic and experimentation... why not?
SAFETY DISCLAIMER
It very probably doesn't need to be said but...
I'm keeping myself well aware of the risks of working with Ar. My curiosity may be peaked but my wits are staying about me. My last job involved me getting very hands on with LN2 in a laboratory cleanroom and gaseous N2 feeds into machinery. I've always been sure to respect the dangers associated with these gases, especially pressurised. I'm constantly assessing my process when I use them. Even with something as small as Sodastream CO2 bottle.
I'm just doing what I can to ensure that the process remains as similar as possible just with different products involved.
Having fun and making an enjoyable end product is why I got into homebrewing but I still wish to stay safe while I explore lol
https://winemakermag.com/technique/1308-inert-gases-techniques
https://air-source.com/blog/the-use-of-argon-in-viticulture/
https://morewinemaking.com/articles/Inert_gas_wine
https://gravitywinehouse.com/blog/gas-use-in-the-winery/
"The Home Winemaking Channel" on YouTube has done some videos on it too.
I see that they may relate more to commercial wine making, but just as it was done with things such as pressure fermenting beers etc. we as homebrewers could have a go at adapting our own versions. This particular attempt is probably not going to be overly practical in the long run but again, for the sake of a bit of craic and experimentation... why not?
SAFETY DISCLAIMER
It very probably doesn't need to be said but...
I'm keeping myself well aware of the risks of working with Ar. My curiosity may be peaked but my wits are staying about me. My last job involved me getting very hands on with LN2 in a laboratory cleanroom and gaseous N2 feeds into machinery. I've always been sure to respect the dangers associated with these gases, especially pressurised. I'm constantly assessing my process when I use them. Even with something as small as Sodastream CO2 bottle.
I'm just doing what I can to ensure that the process remains as similar as possible just with different products involved.
Having fun and making an enjoyable end product is why I got into homebrewing but I still wish to stay safe while I explore lol
Last edited:
If you had a wife that can get through wine as fast as mine (with a fair bit of help from myself) you would understand the need for degassing.degassing is necessary to aidclearingbad stock control
I degassed my wine kit but didn't degas my mead.
My wine kit was finished in around 6/7 weeks started at the beginning of July, consumed by end of August
My mead was about 6 months.
Started at the beginning of July last year, after racking into a secondary, it wasn't touched until Christmas Eve 2023 for the family to enjoy.
An Ankoù
Landlord.
Joking aside, if you're having to drink it too young, you're not making enough.degassing is necessary to aidclearingbad stock control
Piqued?
Why not use nitrogen, it's relatively inert. I would have thought cheaper than argon.
Oh now... 27 years of life on this earth and I have only just now learned that this is the correct way to use this phrase. Thank you very much!
Had done a bit of digging into N2 and the lack of availability for it being supplied going through BOC in NI is probably the biggest factor. Once I seen that I would probably have to jump through a few hoops to get my hands on it or travel somewhere down south, I just kind of wrote it off as a possibility.
The supplier I can get the argon from is less than 5 miles from my house so seemed reasonable enough to me to stick with it as my option.
If I could readily get my hands on a cannister of N2 from a local supplier then it would certainly be on the table as an option.
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2013
- Messages
- 4,903
- Reaction score
- 2,347
My comment stands... You haven't met mine.
Next week I take delivery of 1t one grapes.
RoomWithABrew
Landlord.
In no way does Argon stratify, neither does CO2. There is too much activity in the gas and they will just mix.
If it did when you went into a still cave underground you'd suffocate because all of the CO2 had settled down.
I have spunded and closed transfer when making sparkling elderflower wine. But no need for normal wine. If it was important Wine would never have developed as a drink all those years ago.
If it did when you went into a still cave underground you'd suffocate because all of the CO2 had settled down.
I have spunded and closed transfer when making sparkling elderflower wine. But no need for normal wine. If it was important Wine would never have developed as a drink all those years ago.
I did mention this in a previous comment.
although I see what you mean and I'm not really looking that deep into it but I had thought about this too when I was considering buying the dispense gun for my beer/cider making and came to the below conclusion before going ahead pulling the trigger on it.
Biggest factor there with respect to the gases mixing is the air turbulence.
I'm aware there'd wouldn't be complete displacement and there would be mixing, my approach to the process would likely be to purge it slowly at a low pressure and have limited movement of the dispensing equipment so that the mixing was minimised due to limited air turbulence in the bottle. Anything beyond the interacting boundary of the two gases should be displaced.
How deep that turbulent interacting boundary is would be related to the flow coming out of the dispense gun. If I limit it as much as possible, I should limit the depth of this inaction boundary.
A slow laminar flow of inert gas or CO2 (product dependent) would most certainly be ideal but realistically not possible.
Limiting the turbulence that is created would be the best approach.
A large enough purge theoretically should displace enough of the air in the bottle that a large portion of the oxygen is removed and any remaining oxygen that is mixed into the argon would be about as concerning as that which is introduced when a racking cane is pushed through the CO2 layer in a demijohn.
I'm not really too worried about this and for the sake of the process, I'm happy enough to say that it's the displacement of the air out of the bottle.
However, beyond the above
I'm dont see a reason to go too deep into the rabbit hole regard the science surrounding the idea. (I use this phrase loosely)
I'd never achieve what I set out to do if I were to get so caught up in ensure a completely isolated anaerobic environment.
The closest I'm willing to go is to compare the idea of doing this with the existing process the majority of people carry out for making wine.
Anything beyond that would just be being pedantic.
The majority of people don't purge bottles and they are capable of producing great wine, others do things the same way and get oxidation.
The purge should be more than adequate to reduce my chances of this occuring and thats all I care about.
It was that thought process that ultimately.lead to me buying a dispense gun for my beer so I'm happy to let the same logic apply here.
Sparkling elderflower wine sounds absolutely delicious!
If you don't mind me asking, how did you go about your process of spunding and closed transfer? This is true that there jzls not be a need for it with normal wine but I can't help but want to try it
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2013
- Messages
- 4,903
- Reaction score
- 2,347
Absolutely go for it.
Thankyou. It was interesting to read through those, and keep upto date. They don't cover any new ground except argon instead of mixed gas...which I assume is because it has wider use in industry than mixed gas.
And the one that really piqued my interest was "air-sourced". But it turned out they got it soo wrong.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2013
- Messages
- 4,903
- Reaction score
- 2,347
I would say this is knowledge & good practice not kit. If it was easy everyone would be doing it.
RoomWithABrew
Landlord.
@aero-spaced-out
Pretty standard elderflower wine recipe, aiming for 11%.
Open fermented for first few days, stirring daily to redunk the umbrells.
In a fermentasaurus.
Then when gravity about 1.025 I fitted the spend valve and let rise to 25 psi.
Once ferment finished slow crash and dropped yeast out.
Then cold crash in fridge and used finings( closed transfer of those).
Dropped the trub again.
Used Williamswarn counter pressure bottle filler to transfer into champagne bottles with dextrose priming to target 4 vols. This was using the doug293 calculator on US homebrew forum.
Then crown capped and waited.
It's solid and unique at year 3.
I'm using the elderflower now for elderflower saison and cordial.
Roll on November to harvest again.
Pretty standard elderflower wine recipe, aiming for 11%.
Open fermented for first few days, stirring daily to redunk the umbrells.
In a fermentasaurus.
Then when gravity about 1.025 I fitted the spend valve and let rise to 25 psi.
Once ferment finished slow crash and dropped yeast out.
Then cold crash in fridge and used finings( closed transfer of those).
Dropped the trub again.
Used Williamswarn counter pressure bottle filler to transfer into champagne bottles with dextrose priming to target 4 vols. This was using the doug293 calculator on US homebrew forum.
Then crown capped and waited.
It's solid and unique at year 3.
I'm using the elderflower now for elderflower saison and cordial.
Roll on November to harvest again.
Just priced it.
Nitrogen can be purchased and is £50 cheaper for 10L than argon.
Nitrogen can only be got in 10L whereas the argon can be purchased in smaller tanks so it'll probably be better in the long run to go small argon tanks due to this just being an experiment. And sure if it goes wrong then sure I have gas for welding
Similar threads
