Clearing the beer with secondary fermentation

[taylorj29]

Hi guys, I'm currently primary fermenting for as long as it takes to get v-close to the FG, about 5 days, then I rack this off the yeast into another FV for 10 days then I prime it and transfer into minikegs and bottles which I leave for 2 weeks until drinking. All this is done at about 20-21c.

When I go to quality control a bottle, or two, :rofl: I find the beer is still really cloudy so am I missing a step here? :hmm: The yeast is S04.

:

 

[wilsoa1111]

Well i think the steps are sound but it would be worth extending at least the primary fermentation till it has definately dropped clear (which s-04 is legendary for doing so)- in some cases thats in less than 1 week some take much longer, avg is a wk, most say to use 1, 2, 3 rule ie secondary is 2wks bottle for 3wks, other factors may be not using a fining agent eg irish moss in kettle or gelatin in secondary, but tbh i always end up with a chill haze as i cant bear to not add all my hotbreak, and it might be that one or two bottles are cloudy because of this... try leaving a cloudy chilled bottle out so it goes back to room temp if it clears again its chill haze... if so good luck with that im still no better at removing it- still it least it keeps peeps off ma beer and i reckon it could add flavour

 

[graysalchemy]

Are you brewing kits/extract or AG?

I would definetely say make sure your beer is crystal clear before you bottle/keg. You need to leave it somewhere cool after fermentation has completed (this may be upto 10 days or longer). I find putting it on a cold concrete floor for a week or so will result in crystal clear beer.

Also at two weeks the yeast may not have compacted enough and you may be picking up some of the dregs. Also pouring technique helps from bottles. You also need to leave it in cool enviroment after leaving t for a week at 20c after bottling ie bottle leave for 1 week at 20c then leave cool for at least 3-4 weeks. The rule of thumb is 1 week per ten points of gravity so a 1040 beer has 40 gravity points so 4 weeks in a cool enviroment.

Having said all that if you were brewing All Grain or extract and you didn't achieve a hot break and/or didn't chill sufficiently there may still be proteins in the wort causing haze problems.

:thumb:

 

[taylorj29]

still it least it keeps peeps off ma beer

I can understand that! :clap: Thanks for confirming I'm not missing anything obvious although I don't currently use any finings in the copper which I might do for the next one.

Are you brewing kits/extract or AG?

AG with a plastic HERMS

Having said all that if you were brewing All Grain or extract and you didn't achieve a hot break and/or didn't chill sufficiently there may still be proteins in the wort causing haze problems.

I'm getting plenty of hot break and I think I'm chilling quick enough although I'm too fussed about chill haze.

I think I may need to add in the cooling after fermentation has finished and again after bottling has finished.

The wort that came out of the copper last time was very clear, running through the pipes with just a little bit of break, but after 2 weeks fermenting it is still like a muddy puddle. :hmm:

 

[graysalchemy]

By the sounds of it it is probably because it is not dropped clear before you bottle and you haven't cold conditioned the bottles to compact the yeast. :thumb: :thumb:

 

[marcusbroadside]

Just to add another question following on to this thread ....

Is there a time period that is too long to primary ferment and secondary ferment before you have to or should keg or bottle? :hmm:

thanks....

 

[taylorj29]

By the sounds of it it is probably because it is not dropped clear before you bottle and you haven't cold conditioned the bottles to compact the yeast. :thumb: :thumb:

I've chucked the demijohns outside so will see how they clear, I will also try some Irish moss in this weeks brew. :

Is there a time period that is too long to primary ferment and secondary ferment before you have to or should keg or bottle?

I have read in most places that 3 weeks in primary with the beer sitting on the yeast cake is pretty much the limit before you start to risk off flavours as the yeast dies.

 

[graysalchemy]

if you drop it into a secondary you grey it off the worst of the yeast cake so its not so bad. I have had high gravitybeersin secondary for three months with no ill effect :thumb:

 

[Vossy1]

T, you should be able to get good results with primary for 10 days then racking. There are a lot of variables to your beer/process which you need to look at, starting in reverse order.
As has already been said, 2 weeks from priming to drinking is not long enough, it needs a minimum 1 week (pref 2) warm (20Deg ish) and 2 weeks cold. If you've carried too much yeast over it will take longer. Extend this time frame before looking elsewhere Trialling different time frames should answer if your carrying too much yeast/break over. Crash cooling the fv to drop excessive yeast/protein will help but shouldn't really be needed.
Break material, there's no real proof that fermenting on the break will affect short term usage beer...however...if the break is excessive due to the brewing process, it may well do. You really need to use kettle finings before looking for fault elsewhere You may also need to consider aux finings but I'd start with the simple things first.
After using copper finings and still not getting clear beer you'll have to look at your brewing process.
You're using a HERMS system, it could be the problem if the mash is being compacted/sucked on too much...what are your recirc rates, are you using an underback etc etc etc...better to look at this last.
Also, though you think you're getting good breaks, a lot of proteins will remain and they will be invisible to the naked eye until they start to clump together due to one action or another.

There are a few simple things you can do which will take brews/time and they may eliminate the clarity 'issue', starting with longer maturation first. Notice I've steered clear of mentioning infection :P ...bugger I've done it

 

[taylorj29]

Thanks again for the replies and apologies for the n00b questions.

I will try taking longer for first and second fermentation and see what that does, just being impatient probably. :drink:

The beer does taste fine just cloudy so I'm not thinking shh infection yet...

 

[cwiseman77]

I would definetely say make sure your beer is crystal clear before you bottle/keg. You need to leave it somewhere cool after fermentation has completed (this may be upto 10 days or longer). I find putting it on a cold concrete floor for a week or so will result in crystal clear beer.

Are you saying I should cool the beer before bottling? So for the last week of secondary, move to a cooler environment? 14C(ish)?

 

[graysalchemy]

I ferment till it has stopped then leave it a few days still at fementation temp then drop it into a secondary and leave somewhere cool for the sediment to drop out before bottling. once it has cleared then you should be able to bottle but I usually give it a week. It usually takes two weeks for putting the yeast in to putting it in a bottle for a 1040- 1060 beer a bit longer for heavier beers, perhaps 2-3 weeks in secondary.

 

[cwiseman77]

I ferment till it has stopped then leave it a few days still at fementation temp then drop it into a secondary and leave somewhere cool for the sediment to drop out before bottling. once it has cleared then you should be able to bottle but I usually give it a week. It usually takes two weeks for putting the yeast in to putting it in a bottle for a 1040- 1060 beer a bit longer for heavier beers, perhaps 2-3 weeks in secondary.

I never knew to keep your secondary at a cooler temp, good to know! Is 14C about right? I've just been leaving my secondary at room temp, don't think it has caused any major problems yet...i think

 

[graysalchemy]

Yes thats fine.IMHO the reason for leaving in secondry is to allow the yeast to drop and take it off the trub after fermentation is complete.

It is however best to leave the beer in the primary at fermentation for a few days after fermentation has ceased and you have a constant gravity reading. This because the yeast are still active and will start metabolising some of the by products of fermentation mainly diacetyl which can leave the beer with a butterscotch taste not appropriate for a lot of styles.

 

[taylorj29]

Solved, well I think it is, looks like copper finings is the answer. :thumb: I've got 4 demijohns full of clear(ish) wort just finishing it's first week of fermentation.

Thanks for all the advice guys. :