Clean In Place (CIP) - Yes Please!

[Branny]

Just seen this. I'll be buying but look forward to the site ingenuity on other uses.

 

[gyurmaember]

I'm not sure it's effective at all, did you notice he demonstrates it only with clean equipment?

 

[hoppyscotty]

I’m not convinced CIP is the best option for small vessels. Just quicker and easier to roll your sleeves up and give them a good scrubbing. For large vessels you have no choice but for smaller vessels CIP is more hassle than it’s worth.

 

[Nashbrew]

I made my own for cleaning kegs. The advantage is that it is a closed cleaning system which includes the disconnects as well.
Completely hands off.

 

[Sadfield]

Hot caustic soda is conciderably more efficient than anything you'd want to be using by hand. I've seen this first hand at a local brewery. A few of us went down and brewed simultaneously on their pilot and full kit, which we then cleaned thoroughly by hand. The head brewer demonstrated the difference between homebrew clean and brewery clean by running a CIP cycle, that immediately turned brown from both the organic matter and minerals we hadn't removed.

 

[nickjdavis]

its a pity it sprays upwards towards the lid as it would make a great aeration tool when pumping from kettle to FV.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Hot caustic soda is conciderably more efficient than anything you'd want to be using by hand. I've seen this first hand at a local brewery. A few of us went down and brewed simultaneously on their pilot and full kit, which we then cleaned thoroughly by hand. The head brewer demonstrated the difference between homebrew clean and brewery clean by running a CIP cycle, that immediately turned brown from both the organic matter and minerals we hadn't removed.

That’s pretty serious stuff and probably massive overkill for the average home brewer. I use hot sodium percarbonate which does a great job of dissolving organic matter. Did a great job removing year old crud off my BBQ last weekend!

I CIP my big fermenter because it’s impossible to clean by hand. For my small fermenter I use hot sodium percarbonate and give it a shake and good soak. For disconnects use a modified garden sprayer.

For hoses and connects I’ll pile up in my mash tun or kettle and circulate hot sodium percarbonate through the hoses and soak all the fittings.

 

[Graz]

I use hot sodium percarbonate which does a great job of dissolving organic matter. Did a great job removing year old crud off my BBQ last weekend!

Never really thought about using Oxi for this, not that I really clean my BBQs that often, getting it hot does most of what's needed. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Sadfield]

That’s pretty serious stuff and probably massive overkill for the average home brewer.

Sure, but brewers kit can't be too clean. This makes investing in CIP and not using Caustic just seems like a waste of opportunity and money.

My post however was to answer the point about the video using CIP on 'clean' kit or addressing kit size issues. It was an illustration that the depth of CIP goes beyond that of scrubbing and looking visually clean. Which should be considered if one was to invest in such equipment.

 

[MashBag]

I wasted a lot of time on this a few years ago. Failed it get the BM clean.

 

[Galena]

I just can't see what advantage this gives you as a homebrewer unless accessing areas you cannot reach by hand. I use VWP on all my kit, I wash by hand areas I can access like the FV and kettle etc. I leave it to soak for some time in the FV and invert it to get full coverage. I pump it through my recirculation pump and tubing etc. and then rinse thoroughly. I use starsan prior to use on any cold side equipment.
This device is not exactly high pressure so what advantage does it give, granted if you cannot access a piece of equipment then it could be a helpful bit of kit, which afaik is why CIP was developed.

 

[LeeH]

You need high strength caustic for CIP.

I CIP my kegs with TFR, oxy is useless with CIP.

 

[Sadfield]

Wort proteins, yeast, bacteria, humans are all organic. There's a correlation between the hazardous nature and efficacy of cleaning, with caustic and sodium percarbonate. I'm quite happy putting my hand in to warm sodium percarbonate. As someone who occasionally mercerises cotton, I don't want caustic soda anywhere near my skin. For brewery cleaning sodium percarbonate doesn't come close to caustic soda. That's the benefit of CIP, it's the safest way to use caustic soda's superior cleaning power. Without CIP we have to make do with oxy, at much longer contact times.

 

[MashBag]

You need high strength caustic for CIP.

I CIP my kegs with TFR, oxy is useless with CIP.

Yes indeed, but it's still not as good at stuck on grot at a brush (and yes I use TFR spray with gloves)

 

[LeeH]

Yes indeed, but it's still not as good at stuck on grot at a brush (and yes I use TFR spray with gloves)

Mechanical intervention will certainly speed things up but CIP is pretty standard in industry as due to its low labour requirements and is very quick depending on the solution of the cleaning agent.

Process with pipes and tanks are CIP Food processing equipment such as slices, packing equipment (my industry now) are all hand cleaned (jet washers/pads) due to the nature of them.

All cleaned with caustic, rinsed with acid. It’s an industry standard. (TRF/Starsan ring a bell?)

No oxy on site, there is a reason for this…, it’s shite

 

[hoppyscotty]

Oxy might be ***** in terms of the professional world, but it does work....it's the standard for household cleaning products and for small vessels it's good enough. I clean by jet wash and hand first and use long hot sodium percarbonate CIP wash as a final cleaning cycle and it works a treat. I've seen stubborn krausen rings that have survived the jet wash and long handled brush dissolve away with oxi, a heating element that had accidentally run dry and cooked on a thick hardened layer of wort come out clean as a whistle with a good long oxi soak so it does the biz. Might take a bit longer to work, but time is a commodity that home brewers have. Caustic is pretty lethal stuff to have hanging around a crowded garage that is tripling up as a brewery, bike and tool storage, workshop, and general place to toss general crap. With that stuff **** is getting serious and at my workplace it requires heavy H&S and COSHH processes and audits and proper safety gear at hand and I suspect the average home brewer doesn't bother with any of that so best they steer well clear. Oxi and time and a bit of elbow grease is perfectly adequate.

Homebrewers let loose with caustic be like....

 

[MashBag]

it’s shite

 

[dcbrookes]

Just seen this. I'll be buying but look forward to the site ingenuity on other uses.

There are no other uses - it is very disappointing and not worth buying.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

When I was studying brewing too many years ago now , they described a cleaning cycle as a cake divided into 4 slices. The four slices represented Time, Chemical strength, Heat and Mechanical action. If any of the slices get smaller then one or all of the other slices need to get larger to maintain the same level of cleanliness . Let's say for example, that to clean a vessel it requires a one hour cip using a 2% solution of NaOH at a temperature of 80C and pumped through rotational spray heads for mechanical action . Then if you half the chemical solution strength , then you'll have to extend the time, increase the temperature and also the mechanical action by increasing the pump sizes , number of spray heads , or even lads inside scrubbing .
Also brewery caustic cipping solutions contain chelating / sequestering agents to prevent limescale in hard water solutions, surfactants to reduce surface tension, so that the caustic can get in closer to work on the stainless vessel surface , plus dispersants to help remove everything in the rinse cycle , so even homemade caustic solutions are not going to be as effective as professional dedicated products .

 

[Sadfield]

EDTA is pretty easy to get hold of though.