Cant get my head around water treatment

[Sadfield]

As long as it stays civilised the mods have no problem in members having different views.
Surely that is what discussion is about

That isn't true.

 

[Rodcx500z]

So as long as you are right it's alright

 

[aero-spaced-out]

Makes me wonder if the local aqua shop that has RO water I could obtain would be required to produce a report and if so would they be willing to share if I were to explain my circumstances of needing to know...
2025 will be the year I learn about water chem

 

[Its 6pm somewhere]

There's science behind water chemistry but one person's perception of how that affects the taste of the end product is going to be different to the next person's so is the result of the 'correct adjustments' already non-scientific? Maybe I'm rambling, I use RO now and adjust based on brewfather suggestions depending on the style because I want to not because I think I have to and dont give it all that much thought, brewed for years with tap water. Am I getting better beer now? yes I think so but is that in my head? Possibly...or maybe not . It's homebrew, it's a hobby/lifestyle, we might all be doing it wrong...one things for sure, none of us are doing it exactly right but there'd be no fun in that.

 

[peebee]

Postcode for Spotless water station DA26HH
Postcode for my tap water

I looked up RO rejection rates and it didn't help me. The Cl/SO4 figures in your report don't fit (too high reported in the RO water for the amounts in the source water). I think I'll need to obscure all four element/compound boxes and concentrate on Calcium and Alkalinity. Which is all I'll be interested in anyway.

RO Rejection Rates

Thanks again.

 

[peebee]

It's confusing. I have an A-level in chemistry and I found hardness/alkalinity confusing. For those without a decent basis in chemistry, it's even more confusing.

That's why I insist "no hardness"! See:

hardness/alkalinity

1/2 the complexity, and nothing missing either. Why do I get labelled "champion of complexity" around here?

 

[peebee]

... I wouldn't bother with a Thames water authority report, they don't even include calcium in the report!!

You're right! I had to extract it from the "Total Hardness" figure in the report you gave me (which isn't that straight-forward, so I let me "Defuddler" do it):

("Hardness" .... "Defuddler" ... ? Why don't I feel too well and there's all those people retching in the corners?).

Lots of water companies do it (pass off their "Total Hardness" analysis as "Calcium"), but I've only found "Thames" to leave extracting Calcium to the individual.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

I have removed several posts this morning to try to get the thread back on topic.

 

[peebee]

... I find the discussion on water treatment mindblowing. ...

It doesn't need to be and shouldn't be.

Yeah, that was me saying that so stop checking the author! (It's why I get so annoyed when accused of being "complicated").

The issues won't necessarily go away using "RO Water", especially if wanting a "British" style highly mineralised profile, like Graham Wheeler suggested.

I'm working to split mash water additions and boiler/sparge additions. Mash is then all about "alkalinity", boil (or sparge) is where all other salts are added, and you don't need care about "exact" measurements of "two-point-digit-digit" this, "zero-point-digit-digit" that, and similar stupidity. Many of us still do do it ... me included! But I've got to do the footwork to prove it's all right. Reason it's not "all right": Mixing Calcium in any large-ish quantity with the mash can lead to Mash pHs of below 5.0. Like I've been getting ... and nobody here was able to tell me why!

 

[aero-spaced-out]

It doesn't need to be and shouldn't be.

Yeah, that was me saying that so stop checking the author! (It's why I get so annoyed when accused of being "complicated").

The issues won't necessarily go away using "RO Water", especially if wanting a "British" style highly mineralised profile, like Graham Wheeler suggested.

I'm working to split mash water additions and boiler/sparge additions. Mash is then all about "alkalinity", boil (or sparge) is where all other salts are added, and you don't need care about "exact" measurements of "two-point-digit-digit" this, "zero-point-digit-digit" that, and similar stupidity. Many of us still do do it ... me included! But I've got to do the footwork to prove it's all right. Reason it's not "all right": Mixing Calcium in any large-ish quantity with the mash can lead to Mash pHs of below 5.0. Like I've been getting ... and nobody here was able to tell me why!

Don't want to derail the thread too much and take away from author but my own specific reasoning is split about 20% wanting to learn it and 80% financial reasons.

Each brew I go to tesco to get the 30L of the ashbeck water and at 2.70 for a 6 pack, that's an extra 13.50 every single time. The kits I like are only 21.50 so with my water adding on an extra 63% to my brew cost (unless the kit is on sale like it is at the moment making this % even greater)... Starts to add up.
Think my last brew I had to buy 36L.

But as daunting as it is, it is interesting and I would like to learn. If I come to find it isn't much cheaper then I'll continue with Tesco's Ashbeck as I enjoy the flavour of my beers with it.

 

[Davegase]

Don't want to derail the thread too much and take away from author but my own specific reasoning is split about 20% wanting to learn it and 80% financial reasons.

Each brew I go to tesco to get the 30L of the ashbeck water and at 2.70 for a 6 pack, that's an extra 13.50 every single time. The kits I like are only 21.50 so with my water adding on an extra 63% to my brew cost (unless the kit is on sale like it is at the moment making this % even greater)... Starts to add up.
Think my last brew I had to buy 36L.

But as daunting as it is, it is interesting and I would like to learn. If I come to find it isn't much cheaper then I'll continue with Tesco's Ashbeck as I enjoy the flavour of my beers with it.

There's no point in recommending Spotless water to you because I can see you are I NI .
A sorry to rub salt in but my last batch of Spotless was £1.92 for 41L.

 

[aero-spaced-out]

There's no point in recommending Spotless water to you because I can see you are I NI .
A sorry to rub salt in but my last batch of Spotless was £1.92 for 41L.

Yeah I can get 25L of RO water from a local aquatics shop for like £3 or £4, it's actually likely to be less than that tbh (have a terrible habit of overestimating). It's mostly what makes me want to start doing my own water.
That and curiosity.

 

[MashBag]

Each brew I go to tesco to get the 30L of the ashbeck water

Can I genuinely ask, why you started on this path?

 

[aero-spaced-out]

Can I genuinely ask, why you started on this path?

Tried with my tap water, just doesn't come out well.

EDIT: Driving past Tesco on the way home from work too just means that I stop in, grab whatever I'm having for dinner that evening along with my water and carry on hom. It's fairly convenient. Can't continue to justify the price though as I never really stopped to think about the overall cost.

 

[Clint]

The easiest thing I think would pay for a test...don't worry about seasonal fluctuations,use some software and have a play around for the beers you brew. I grouped mine into British ales (Tribute profile I got from them,but often brew other pales with same profile),lager....SAISON! gets the lager treatment as does wheat beers. Then stout or porter then American pales. Once you get going and familiarise yourself with the software you can try custom stuff. The only stuff I needed was CRS,Gypsum,calcium chloride and occasionally some bicarb.
Do try the methods on Strange Steve's thread as the kits are readily available and easy to use but obviously not as easy and mind assuring as getting a lab to do it for you.

 

[RichardM]

For anyone who thinks I'm mad using RO or Spotless water.
I understand the argument,
why use something with the minerals removed only to add them later ?
As has been said by many, a water report is only a snapshot in time.

I went on Thames water website this morning. Searched water report for my post code. The result was dated 2023, so pointless.

When I started using Spotless water I did send sample to Murphy's just to confirm what was in it and it was okay for brewing. Having confirmed it was okay and a blank canvas and also extremely cheap.
I ask "why would I use anything else when I have an outlet very close to me"?
The image below is my spotless water report from Murphy's.

The last figure alkalinity (as CaCO3) just needs to be multiplied by 1.22 to get the figure for HCO3
View attachment 107612

According to the Spotless website "Spotless Water is produced to achieve the lowest parts per billion possible, removing all impurities to deliver water that is always 0.00 TDS" where "TDS stands for Total Dissolvable Solids and is the measurement used to grade water purity, it measures the levels of inorganic salts, principally calcium, magnesium, potassium, sodium, bicarbonates, chlorides, and sulfates and small amounts of organic matter that are dissolved in water."

 

[Clint]

So all that you would start with if it was such is a bucket of hydrogen and oxygen.

 

[RichardM]

So all that you would start with if it was such is a bucket of hydrogen and oxygen.

You have to mix them in the right proportions

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Build Your Own Spotless System​

 

[Clint]

Got loads of the RO stuff sitting idle in work.