Cant get my head around water treatment

[peebee]

Two sides of the same coin?

Nope! 'Twas why I drew these illustrations to emphasise the differences:

 

[Libigage]

Thank you for all your help and advice, perhaps this is why I don't get it. Someone's going to tell me it's easy next !

 

[Davegase]

Thank you for all your help and advice, perhaps this is why I don't get it. Someone's going to tell me it's easy next !

Don't worry too much, if you've got good recipes and follow good process you'll get decent beer.
You need to repeat recipes and maybe make slight adjustments to water treatment to suit your own taste.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Nope! 'Twas why I drew these illustrations to emphasise the differences:

View attachment 107637View attachment 107638

So what chemicals exactly are the non conservative anions? For me, when the local geology means that the water primarily filters through limestone and chalk?

HCO3 ions? Something else?

 

[peebee]

So what chemicals exactly are the non conservative anions? For me, when the local geology means that the water primarily filters through limestone and chalk?

HCO3 ions? Something else?

You're playing devil's advocate! I know you know if you quiz me on one of my favourite ranting subjects, you're going to get a load of pre-prepared information thrown back. It has to be pre-prepared 'cos my "condition" makes storing such stuff in me 'ead unreliable. And you also know the reward for telling me anything useful ... "You will be assimilated (resistance is futile).". **

The illustrations were ripped out of my "Defuddler" Read it! I should have described the posted illustrations more ... The right is cleaned up of any "Hardness" pap, the left describes the "modern" interpretation of "Hardness": Confused, fuzzy and incomplete (it should have been left alone described with soap suds).

@Davegase describes HCO3 in his fine post earlier (I've never seen the output of someone actually having "Spotless" RO Water sent for analysis .... Note: it isn't the same as distilled water!).


** My favorite subject for "assimilation" is "Silver-is-Money" (Larry Sayre: Author of the - free - water calculator "Mash-Made-Easy"). He describes things in mind-numbing detail, then tells you "as-it-is" (in proper Yorkshire fashion!). Here he is in full flow: Homebrew Talk (it took me a few reads to get past the "mind-numbing detail" and get the proper message!) ... "quasi-empirical" is a favorite phrase: Google puts "quasi" as "apparently ... but not really". Hey, that's what I do! Compare that with "John Palmer" of the "Water" book fame, where he uses deceit and his supposed "scientist" credentials to peddle complete twaddle ("[quasi-scientific]³ ") on unsuspecting followers who are trying to trust him! (That was a [rant]³ by-the-way!).

 

[Agentgonzo]

The illustrations were ripped out of my "Defuddler" Read it!

I read it. It didn't really understand it.
I think I'll just continue on the assumptions that:

• The vast majority of the minerals in my water are from limetstone/chalk
• Limestone/chalk is CaCO3, that when dissolved in water creates one part Ca2+ ion and two parts HCO- ions.
• The majority of the ions in my water that make up "hardness" is calcium, from the limestone
• The majority of the ions in my water that make up "alkalinity" is bicarbonate, from the limestone
• When express "as HCO3", the value for 'hardness' and 'alkalinity' from dissolving CaCO3 in pure water would be the same value
• Therefore when express "as HCO3", the hardness and alkalinity from my (limestone) water are close enough to equivalent that I can just use them interchangably.

Let me know if any of those assumptions are wrong. Here is my water report, plus the summary:

Hardness Information: Total Hardness level of 23 mg/l Ca

• 274 parts per million
• 19 Clarke degrees
• 27 French degrees
• 15 German degrees

 

[MashBag]

Thank you for all your help and advice, perhaps this is why I don't get it. Someone's going to tell me it's easy next !

Have I mentioned AMS & DWB round here before

 

[Libigage]

Have I mentioned AMS & DWB round here before

I'm on it, malt miller delivery on its way, with DK's centennial delight, might do a double brew on Monday

 

[Sadfield]

Have I mentioned AMS & DWB round here before

Crikey! Stop complicating things with DWB, the OPs water has enough Sulphate and Chloride + that provided by the AMS.

 

[Appleton Brews]

Water treatment is so simple why do people want to complicate it. It is simple arithmetic I.e addition of salts/acid or division I.e dilution of source water with bottled or RO.

 

[Libigage]

Water treatment is so simple why do people want to complicate it. It is simple arithmetic I.e addition of salts/acid or division I.e dilution of source water with bottled or RO.

I'm sorry but I don't find it that easy, probably because I'm scared of getting it wrong. So my water report is at the start of this thread. So if I dilute my tap water with spotless water, how much would I use of each to get 30 litres of hoppy pale ale water. And what would my profile look like.

 

[Appleton Brews]

Let me have the values for your source (tap) water and what beer tap you are making and what volume. I assume spotless water has zero for all 6 values?
Edit I see your source water profile.

 

[hoppyscotty]

I'm sorry but I don't find it that easy, probably because I'm scared of getting it wrong. So my water report is at the start of this thread. So if I dilute my tap water with spotless water, how much would I use of each to get 30 litres of hoppy pale ale water. And what would my profile look like.

You can’t get it wrong really. If you like the beer you brew then all is good with whatever it is you’re doing. If you want to fine tune your beer to chase specific things like accentuating hop bitterness, or maltiness or hop aroma or head retention or mouthfeel or manage alkalinity and ph, then you need start digging a bit deeper into water chemistry. But the rules about what you need to do to your water to chase whatever it is you’re chasing are pretty well established so a bit of research will get you the answers you need, or at least a good starter for ten. Alternatively you could contact a local brewery who is on the same water supply as you and ask them. Usually breweries are quite helpful.

The rules are, there are no rules. Target profiles are great if you want to clone an established beer, but if you’re not cloning then you can create your own water profiles based upon flavours and things you want from your own beer.

But I would recommend paying for a proper lab analysis of your tap water if you can’t source RO water because if you are going to start treating your water then of course you have to have as good an idea as possible of what you’re starting off with.

Of course it depends on the water you have at your disposal. I’m blessed with pretty good water, especially for bitters and pale ales and IPA’s, so for me getting to water treatment is about that last 5% fine tuning of my beers. There are things in my brewing process that have delivered much bigger step changes in quality and repeatability.

Of course if you really want to geek out on this then there are plenty on this forum who really know their onions (or anions?) on this topic.

 

[Davegase]

Let me have the values for your source (tap) water and what beer tap you are making and what volume. I assume spotless water has zero for all 6 values?
Edit I see your source water profile.

The values for spotless water which I had analyzed are in my earlier post . Post 49

 

[Libigage]

I'm making a hoppy pale ale. I've got and couple of ideas on what to do, but I'm open and willing to listen to anyone

 

[Appleton Brews]

Ok the spotless water was so low I put zeros in and made a recipe for 22 litres of American Pale, water was your tap diluted 50% with spotless water. Not knowing your equipment I have done a no sparge full volume. The additions are

Miscs​

3 ml — CRS/AMS — Mash

0.5 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash

2.8 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash

7 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
This gives a water profile of

Water Profile​

Ca2+ 112
Mg2+15
Na+ 25
Cl- 56
SO42- 227
HCO3- 85

 

[Libigage]

Ok the spotless water was so low I put zeros in and made a recipe for 22 litres of American Pale, water was your tap diluted 50% with spotless water. Not knowing your equipment I have done a no sparge full volume. The additions are

Miscs​

3 ml — CRS/AMS — Mash

0.5 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash

2.8 g — Epsom Salt (MgSO4) — Mash

7 g — Gypsum (CaSO4) — Mash
This gives a water profile of

Water Profile​

Ca2+ 112
Mg2+15
Na+ 25
Cl- 56
SO42- 227
HCO3- 85

Sorry brewzilla 35 litre gen 3.1.1

 

[Sadfield]

Water treatment is so simple why do people want to complicate it. It is simple arithmetic I.e addition of salts/acid or division I.e dilution of source water with bottled or RO.

I'd say that is the main problem, people focus too much on the numbers and worry that if they aren't hitting them exactly every time, then their beer will be ruined. Forgetting that when you add grain to water those ion values get added to. That and stupid comments about beer potentially tasting minerally.

As for complicating things, why dilute with RO, treat with CRS, and then add in Calcium Chloride, Epsom Salt and Gypsum, when the correct dosage of CRS alone will give a profile?

Ca -96
Mg- 18
Na - 41
CO3 - 15
SO4 - 235
Cl - 118

 

[Appleton Brews]

Because to achieve a APA profile with the source would mean adding 15 ml of CRS, which would screw up the Chlorine and Calcium and still would need to add 4g Gypsum and 2.5g of Epsom salts.

 

[Davegase]

Because to achieve a APA profile with the source would mean adding 15 ml of CRS, which would screw up the Chlorine and Calcium and still would need to add 4g Gypsum and 2.5g of Epsom salts.

I think you mean chloride