Brewzilla Gen 4 - Struggling to get to boil point

[MashBag]

Better I would suggest, is not to recirc through the spider.

 

[Twostage]

Jumping back in thread a bit, & noticed you've got heater power control from RAPT, and wondered where abouts you find or enable that?

My RAPT portal (profiles /programmes), only allows temperature; time; alarms and step control (Nov.23 - Jan.24).

While a profile is running, temperature set for step, can't be overridden, which seems a pity. But as profile events (alarms/step control) can be triggered when a set temperature is reached, overriding temperature at panel could mess up the next temperature triggered event.
Also,when a profile is running, the panel temperature up/down buttons are used for manual step control.

The lack of things you can control in a step in a profile is feedback I would give to the BZ people. I'd like to be able to have control over heater and pump power during each step and also PID settings for the whole programme. That way you could have pump at 100 while it heats to strike, pump off while you dough in, then pump on 50% for the mash. Then turn PID off for the boil and set the heat power to 50% when it reaches 99c. You could have different PID settings for different sized batches.

You can still override pump power and heating power during a programme. The only thing you can't control is the target temp (as you say, which is a shame). Press the arrow/circle button and it cycles through the settings (pump power, heating power, target temp). Pressing up and down arrow changes pump power or heating power or completes the step if target temp is highlighted.

 

[Twostage]

Better I would suggest, is not to recirc through the spider.

I'm keen to try it after reading what a big difference whirlpooling makes to the flavour of beer. Not only the fact that there is a whirlpool but the whirlpool temperature.

If it goes "small blue/yellow birds" up I'll abandon

 

[Twostage]

Went on a hunt and found the RAPT github site. The good news is that having control over pump, heater, PID etc. during steps is planned :-

Advanced Profiles: Add pump, heating, PID, external sensor differential settings to profile steps for BrewZilla profiles.​

The bad news is that it has been planned for a year. I've given it a thumbs up which might help.

 

[jambop]

The lack of things you can control in a step in a profile is feedback I would give to the BZ people. I'd like to be able to have control over heater and pump power during each step and also PID settings for the whole programme. That way you could have pump at 100 while it heats to strike, pump off while you dough in, then pump on 50% for the mash. Then turn PID off for the boil and set the heat power to 50% when it reaches 99c. You could have different PID settings for different sized batches.

You can still override pump power and heating power during a programme. The only thing you can't control is the target temp (as you say, which is a shame). Press the arrow/circle button and it cycles through the settings (pump power, heating power, target temp). Pressing up and down arrow changes pump power or heating power or completes the step if target temp is highlighted.

I am going to make a statement and regret is but here goes

For nearly all beer styles homebrewers using the modern malt varieties available today, nobody really needs to have to step mash. A simple single temperature mash is all that is required and if you really feel the need a ten minute mash out. With that in mind what most users of the AIO brew system should be doing is perfecting a mashing profile for their system that suits this method. The mash temperature can vary but the settings for heating, pump etc should be near identical as the temperture window for creating simple and more complex sugars from starch in the correct ratio is very narrow for nearly all beers, indeed nearly all of the starch in most malts has already been digested to simple sugars by the time mashing in has been completed and the recirculation pump started .

I brew mostly English beers styles and that means mashing at 66C to 68C depending on the style. For me my only goal when I get round to using my Bz will be to be able to control single step mash temperatures without drastic over temperature shoots for mashes within that range.

So my thoughts are, for me at any rate. If I find the correct grain crush size and maintain that, then after perfecting heating rate, pump speed and PID settings to ensure minimal temperature over shoots I should be able to use the same settings whether I choose to mash at 66, 67 or 68 C ... simples

 

[Twostage]

I am going to make a statement and regret is but here goes

For nearly all beer styles homebrewers using the modern malt varieties available today, nobody really needs to have to step mash. A simple single temperature mash is all that is required and if you really feel the need a ten minute mash out. With that in mind what most users of the AIO brew system should be doing is perfecting a mashing profile for their system that suits this method. The mash temperature can vary but the settings for heating, pump etc should be near identical as the temperture window for creating simple and more complex sugars from starch in the correct ratio is very narrow for nearly all beers, indeed nearly all of the starch in most malts has already been digested to simple sugars by the time mashing in has been completed and the recirculation pump started .

I brew mostly English beers styles and that means mashing at 66C to 68C depending on the style. For me my only goal when I get round to using my Bz will be to be able to control single step mash temperatures without drastic over temperature shoots for mashes within that range.

So my thoughts are, for me at any rate. If I find the correct grain crush size and maintain that, then after perfecting heating rate, pump speed and PID settings to ensure minimal temperature over shoots I should be able to use the same settings whether I choose to mash at 66, 67 or 68 C ... simples

I'm not interested in step mashes either (not at this point anyway). I think the PID settings in the kegland video will be close with the 50% pump cycle for the mash as they advise.

Are you thinking of using it in manual mode ? Or creating profiles for the different mash temps ?

 

[MashBag]

I am going to make a statement and regret is but here goes

For nearly all beer styles homebrewers using the modern malt varieties available today, nobody really needs to have to step mash. A simple single temperature mash is all that is required and if you really feel the need a ten minute mash out. With that in mind what most users of the AIO brew system should be doing is perfecting a mashing profile for their system that suits this method. The mash temperature can vary but the settings for heating, pump etc should be near identical as the temperture window for creating simple and more complex sugars from starch in the correct ratio is very narrow for nearly all beers, indeed nearly all of the starch in most malts has already been digested to simple sugars by the time mashing in has been completed and the recirculation pump started .

I brew mostly English beers styles and that means mashing at 66C to 68C depending on the style. For me my only goal when I get round to using my Bz will be to be able to control single step mash temperatures without drastic over temperature shoots for mashes within that range.

So my thoughts are, for me at any rate. If I find the correct grain crush size and maintain that, then after perfecting heating rate, pump speed and PID settings to ensure minimal temperature over shoots I should be able to use the same settings whether I choose to mash at 66, 67 or 68 C ... simples

I don't disagree that modern highly modified malts do not 'need' (probably 99% of the time).

That said..

I use a steps as cold holding @ 20c overnight.

I do prefer a protein rest, it makes a difference and I have time to burn, at that point.

I have abandoned mash out, as it will be boiling in 33mins.... That and think this only applies for bigger volumes.

 

[jambop]

I'm not interested in step mashes either (not at this point anyway). I think the PID settings in the kegland video will be close with the 50% pump cycle for the mash as they advise.

Are you thinking of using it in manual mode ? Or creating profiles for the different mash temps ?

I don't know yet. I am almost tempted for sake of it to just stick with one at 67C and maybe create another just in case I want a very fermentable wort maybe at 65C. I honestly think that most bitters, pale ales and milds would work just as well at 67C ? Of course the yeast plays a role too , if you are using Windsor for example you may want that temp a bit lower to ler the Beta have a better bash at it before it is nobbled. However again being truthful I have made beers where I have forgotten to change the strike temp to the mash temp until I noticed that it had already exceeded 68C and then went on to reach 70 C ! I have killed the heating and let it fall back to 67C completed the mash and still had great beer. I really think that most of the simple sugars are created in the first ten to fifteen mins so over shoots after doughing in are not a catastrophy for me as I dough in and let it have ten mins before I start pumping the liquor below over the mashing grain mix and let it stand for another ten mins before starting recirculation continuously to the end of my 90 minute mashing period.

 

[peterpiper]

......when it completes a stage or reaches the set temp it also sends that message to you as an email. ......

Also, can get notification alert on device here you've installed the RAPT app. Easier for me, than via emails.

Only problem (was) that you have to enable notifications for the app, and on my android 12&13 devices, the notifications slider was greyed out (think app vs android compatibility issues). So I'd been having to use old android 10 phone, to get alerts. But just looked now and the slider is now working, so guess there's been some update, and I'll be able to use newer phone or tablet next time.

It's great for a strike temperature alert.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I have abandoned mash out, as it will be boiling in 33mins.... That and think this only applies for bigger volumes

I only do a mashout because it's already in the profile and easier to leave in. As you say, it's not needed at homebrew levels (stopping enzyme action). Skipping it (for me) doesn't save time as it still needs to heat up to the boil anyway. Mash "fluidity" has no impact at homebrew levels going from 68° to 75° anyway, and all sugars are already dissolved in the wort at the end of the mash

 

[MashBag]

Absolutely my thinking.

That aside, I am beginning to think some of these AIOs have very unsophisticated controllers. The BM is very much set and forget.

 

[peterpiper]

Images below

I'm guessing from you're graph that you've got the RAPT Bluetooth probe (the blue curve on graph).
If I could figure the graph timescale I could tell you your heater power (I'll post below how to check).

It's great for showing the actual mash temperature, rather than temperature by the heater shown by the built in sensor.
I reckon the BT probe gives fairly accurate temperature readings. It's within a degree of my digital medical thermometer (at 38°), and my old probe thermometer at various temperatures.

Have you set the BZ to use the BT probe for temp control?
Settings menu - Temperature Sensor (presently shows Built In) – Select- scroll UP/DOWN (to BT thermometer) then Select

– Allowed sensor diff. default 3°C. I use 6°C
Allowed maximum differential (overshoot) for internal sensor. eg with 10°C and target 65°C, heating can continue till internal sensor reaches 75°C.
10°C is about the maximum for rapid heating, 6°C may be a safer figure for normal use, lower may be better with small mash volumes (where a larger proportion of wort can reach the higher temperature).
It is also a safety feature, in case the bt probe leaves the mash.

When the BT probe is powered down, control is automatically passed back to the built in sensor.

I just use the probe for control while mashing.

While the probe controls the temperature during mash, I suspect PID is not helpful. I leave it turned off, and just adjust reduced heater power during mash, depending on the the recirculation rate, to avoid large overshoots (on internal sensor).
And using internal sensor while heating to strike, there's little overshoot if recirculating (without PID).

PID is only optimised for one volume/mass and one set of conditions. Heating to strike; mashing no recirc / slow recirc / fast recirc; and boil would each have different optimum PID settings.

 

[Twostage]

Also, can get notification alert on device here you've installed the RAPT app. Easier for me, than via emails.

Only problem (was) that you have to enable notifications for the app, and on my android 12&13 devices, the notifications slider was greyed out (think app vs android compatibility issues). So I'd been having to use old android 10 phone, to get alerts. But just looked now and the slider is now working, so guess there's been some update, and I'll be able to use newer phone or tablet next time.

It's great for a strike temperature alert.

Thanks for that. I'll get the app.

 

[Twostage]

I have abandoned mash out, as it will be boiling in 33mins.... That and think this only applies for bigger volumes.

I've always sparged with room temperature water where room temperature can be around 6c on a cold day.

My first brew on the BZ will be my first mashout. I'll heat the sparge water in either the Burco or one of my big pots. It should help to get to boil quicker.

 

[Davegase]

I've always sparged with room temperature water where room temperature can be around 6c on a cold day.

My first brew on the BZ will be my first mashout. I'll heat the sparge water in either the Burco or one of my big pots. It should help to get to boil quicker.

I use my burco for sparge water , it used to be my biab system with my homemade pid controller.

 

[Twostage]

I don't know yet. I am almost tempted for sake of it to just stick with one at 67C and maybe create another just in case I want a very fermentable wort maybe at 65C. I honestly think that most bitters, pale ales and milds would work just as well at 67C ?

Yep, my first profile is going to be 67c.

 

[peterpiper]

See if your Brewzilla gen4 heater is working.

The g4 should achieve a full rolling boil, and be able to maintain it at reduced heater power.

It's easy to check the heater power, by measuring the time it takes to heat up water. I'll put some figures below.

As far as I understand it the g4 (35l) still has 1900W and 500W heaters, but these are now switched on-off with differing on : off time ratios to achieve the 0 - 100% power control.

Kegland, said relays had proved to be more reliable than solid state control.
I hear the relays clicking on-off merrily all the time, so wont be surprised if contact arcing (especially with 1900W switching) means they don't last long.

If one does go you'll only know by the water not heating properly.


I wasn't sure if used a separate relay for each heater, so I took the cover off.


There's 4 relays, 1 for pump, and 3 for (the two) heaters. The control panel ribbon connector has 3 heaters marked. I guess the third is for use of this board on other models.

Counting from left end of 10 way screw connector, heaters on terminal 2 (WHITE) common; terminal 7 500W (RED 101Ω) ; and terminal 8 1900W (BLUE28.5Ω).

The JT105F-1 relay has an electrical rating 30A 240Vac; and electrical life rating of 100,000 operations.

I hear them operating maybe around every 5 seconds, say that's each one every10sec.
6 times a minute = 360/ hour = 2160 / 6hr brew session = 101,520 / 47 brew sessions!

Same ones used in many solar PV controllers, and they're often breaking.

I've just realised what the relay cycle time (in settings) must do, and I've upped it to 20sec. Had been 5sec, so maybe I've just quadrupled the lifespan.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Heater check

Getting water to strike temperature a few weeks ago seemed to be taking ages, so I worked the figures to do a check.
It ended up showing the heaters were fine, it was just slow with the supply water being 12°C cooler, than on the previous batch.

P = (4.2 × L × T ) ÷ 3600
Pt= total power kWh; L= volume of water in litres; Tc= temperature rise in °C
Pt = P (kW) * T (time sec) ÷ 3600
P * T = 4.2 * L * T
T = 4.2 * L * T ÷ P

For 10 litres and a 10°C rise, with heaters full on (2.4kW)
T = 4.2 * 10 * 10 ÷ 2.4 = 175 seconds or 2min 55sec.

For 10 litres and a 10°C rise, if only 1.9kW heater working
T= 4.2 * 10 * 10 ÷ 1.9 = 221 sec. or 3min 41sec.

For 10 litres and a 10°C rise, if only 500W heater working
T= 4.2 * 10 * 10 ÷ 0.5 = 840 sec. or 14 min.

Those times are for 100% efficiency, so will always take a bit longer with losses to the container and environment. The latter is less at lower temperatures, so best to check by filling with 10L cold water, wait for temperature to stabilise, then measure time for a 10°C rise.

If you want the time for a different volume; temperature rise; or efficiency, there's a handy tool heat calculator

SUPPLY WIRING
Some people have mentioned having BZ located in a shed.
Sometimes shed wiring can be a bit suspect, and there can be voltage drops from resistance over a long spur, or sub consumer units, when you are running a heavy load.
If drop means it's say 210V, rather than 230V, you'd only get 83% of full power.

Sometimes 13A socket outlets can cause similar issues, from dodgy contacts, or the switch going high resistance (causing volt loss and a fire hazard). Watch out for plugs or switches feeling hot.
Plugging in-out a few times can help clear tarnishing. Same with IEC connector on BZ, always make sure it's pushed in firmly.

If heater check test seems a bit slow, it may be worth repeating in the house, or on a different CU circuit.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

BOIL SETTING
If your heaters check fine, but you're struggling to get a good rolling boil with just say 15l water (even with the lid on), it's more likely to be something in temperature control rather than losses to the environment (unless really cold, many -°C).

If the heating (flame symbol) has gone off it's definitely a control problem.

My 35l g4 at 40% power, will maintain a rolling boil with the lid off, (target 105°C; room ~20°C) and the heat symbol stays on.

If heat is turning off:
In settings
- Turn PID off to show white dot (rather than blue = on)
- Forget Calibration Restores default calibration curve.

Then try with heater at 100%, and target temperature 120°C (max setting).

If it still switches heat off before reaching boil, the temperature sensor must be way off the default curve (and display would be showing 120°C or over).
Then try, In settings – Calibration point 2 enter 90°C (or measured temperature if you have a suitable thermometer). Display should now show 90°C, and heating should resume (maybe repeat). Once boiling set cal to 100°C.

But if that's needed, then maybe the NTC temperature sensor data has been corrupted or changed by mistake.

There seems no way to reset NTC settings to default (a reset everything option is needed), but here's what my NTC settings are.
Expect they'd stay the same, unless the NTC sensor they use is ever changed.


I use the RAPT Bluetooth temperature probe for control during the mash, so just have my internal sensor calibration points at the cold water fill temp (measured) for Calibration point 1, and 100°C (boiling water) for Calibration point 2.

But maybe I should change to using strike water temperature for Calibration point 1.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

My smartPID has a 12v channel to a 60amp SSR that does the high voltage and current on and off for the 3kw element. I think looking at the pictures you add an SSR in quite easily for the high load relays.

 

[Twostage]

See if your Brewzilla gen4 heater is working.

The g4 should achieve a full rolling boil, and be able to maintain it at reduced heater power.

It's easy to check the heater power, by measuring the time it takes to heat up water. I'll put some figures below.

As far as I understand it the g4 (35l) still has 1900W and 500W heaters, but these are now switched on-off with differing on : off time ratios to achieve the 0 - 100% power control.

Kegland, said relays had proved to be more reliable than solid state control.
I hear the relays clicking on-off merrily all the time, so wont be surprised if contact arcing (especially with 1900W switching) means they don't last long.

If one does go you'll only know by the water not heating properly.


I wasn't sure if used a separate relay for each heater, so I took the cover off.

View attachment 94229View attachment 94230
There's 4 relays, 1 for pump, and 3 for (the two) heaters. The control panel ribbon connector has 3 heaters marked. I guess the third is for use of this board on other models.

Counting from left end of 10 way screw connector, heaters on terminal 2 (WHITE) common; terminal 7 500W (RED 101Ω) ; and terminal 8 1900W (BLUE28.5Ω).

The JT105F-1 relay has an electrical rating 30A 240Vac; and electrical life rating of 100,000 operations.

I hear them operating maybe around every 5 seconds, say that's each one every10sec.
6 times a minute = 360/ hour = 2160 / 6hr brew session = 101,520 / 47 brew sessions!

Same ones used in many solar PV controllers, and they're often breaking.

I've just realised what the relay cycle time (in settings) must do, and I've upped it to 20sec. Had been 5sec, so maybe I've just quadrupled the lifespan.

_________________________________________________________________________________________

Heater check

Getting water to strike temperature a few weeks ago seemed to be taking ages, so I worked the figures to do a check.
It ended up showing the heaters were fine, it was just slow with the supply water being 12°C cooler, than on the previous batch.

P = (4.2 × L × T ) ÷ 3600
Pt= total power kWh; L= volume of water in litres; Tc= temperature rise in °C
Pt = P (kW) * T (time sec) ÷ 3600
P * T = 4.2 * L * T
T = 4.2 * L * T ÷ P

For 10 litres and a 10°C rise, with heaters full on (2.4kW)
T = 4.2 * 10 * 10 ÷ 2.4 = 175 seconds or 2min 55sec.

For 10 litres and a 10°C rise, if only 1.9kW heater working
T= 4.2 * 10 * 10 ÷ 1.9 = 221 sec. or 3min 41sec.

For 10 litres and a 10°C rise, if only 500W heater working
T= 4.2 * 10 * 10 ÷ 0.5 = 840 sec. or 14 min.

Those times are for 100% efficiency, so will always take a bit longer with losses to the container and environment. The latter is less at lower temperatures, so best to check by filling with 10L cold water, wait for temperature to stabilise, then measure time for a 10°C rise.

If you want the time for a different volume; temperature rise; or efficiency, there's a handy tool heat calculator

SUPPLY WIRING
Some people have mentioned having BZ located in a shed.
Sometimes shed wiring can be a bit suspect, and there can be voltage drops from resistance over a long spur, or sub consumer units, when you are running a heavy load.
If drop means it's say 210V, rather than 230V, you'd only get 83% of full power.

Sometimes 13A socket outlets can cause similar issues, from dodgy contacts, or the switch going high resistance (causing volt loss and a fire hazard). Watch out for plugs or switches feeling hot.
Plugging in-out a few times can help clear tarnishing. Same with IEC connector on BZ, always make sure it's pushed in firmly.

If heater check test seems a bit slow, it may be worth repeating in the house, or on a different CU circuit.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

BOIL SETTING
If your heaters check fine, but you're struggling to get a good rolling boil with just say 15l water (even with the lid on), it's more likely to be something in temperature control rather than losses to the environment (unless really cold, many -°C).

If the heating (flame symbol) has gone off it's definitely a control problem.

My 35l g4 at 40% power, will maintain a rolling boil with the lid off, (target 105°C; room ~20°C) and the heat symbol stays on.

If heat is turning off:
In settings
- Turn PID off to show white dot (rather than blue = on)
- Forget Calibration Restores default calibration curve.

Then try with heater at 100%, and target temperature 120°C (max setting).

If it still switches heat off before reaching boil, the temperature sensor must be way off the default curve (and display would be showing 120°C or over).
Then try, In settings – Calibration point 2 enter 90°C (or measured temperature if you have a suitable thermometer). Display should now show 90°C, and heating should resume (maybe repeat). Once boiling set cal to 100°C.

But if that's needed, then maybe the NTC temperature sensor data has been corrupted or changed by mistake.

There seems no way to reset NTC settings to default (a reset everything option is needed), but here's what my NTC settings are.
Expect they'd stay the same, unless the NTC sensor they use is ever changed.
View attachment 94238

I use the RAPT Bluetooth temperature probe for control during the mash, so just have my internal sensor calibration points at the cold water fill temp (measured) for Calibration point 1, and 100°C (boiling water) for Calibration point 2.

But maybe I should change to using strike water temperature for Calibration point 1.

Thanks for this. I realise this is targeted at the original problem but I think we need to start a BZ G4 how to use/hints and tips thread as we are building up a information resource which doesn't 100% fit into 'struggling to get to the boil'.

I'm fairly sure the calibration of the built in sensor is out but everything worked fine in my tests so I'm leaving it. I've got separate RAPT probe too, the thing I've changed in the settings to do with the probe is reduce the timeout from two minutes to 30 seconds.

Interesting about the relay cycle time. Won't changing it from the default mess with the PID algorithm ? Think I'm going to leave mine at the default for now.

FWIW my brewshed is part of a larger building with its own leccy supply.

 

[foxy]

Thanks for this. I realise this is targeted at the original problem but I think we need to start a BZ G4 how to use/hints and tips thread as we are building up a information resource which doesn't 100% fit into 'struggling to get to the boil'.

A good idea maybe ask Chippy to change the title.