Brewzilla Gen 4 - Struggling to get to boil point

[Twostage]

Done a couple of trial runs now. I like it .

Yesterday created a profile that took the temperature to 66c and held it there before going to 75c and holding it. I used 15 litres of water with the Kegland recommended PID settings for that volume. Worked really well, didn't overshoot either temperature and you could hear it clicking the heater on and off as it approached the set temp.

I was just getting bored and about to switch it off when the RAPT probe auto-powered off. Turns out its default timeout is 1 hour (should have read the online manual). Changed it to 14 hours.

Today I did a 66c hold and boil test with 10 litres of water. I guessed the PID settings which turned out to be wrong as it overshot slightly. For the boil I had a stage that took it to 96, followed by a 102 hold stage. I switched off and removed the RAPT probe before the 96c stage and it was just starting to boil at 96c. When the temp got to 101 I turned the power down to 50% and it held a nice boil. I reckon the internal probe could do with calibrating but it works as is so I'm going to leave it.

Minor annoyance is when you start a profile it puts up a message telling you to press up or down to stop the current stage and it stays there making it difficult to see the temperature as it rises. The only way to get it off the screen is by pressing up or down to end the current stage and thankfully it doesn't come back. I'm going to start all future profiles with a dummy first stage that I can immediately click through. I think the wording of the message is a bit misleading as it implies (well states) its going to stop the current stage, it doesn't, it completes the current stage and moves to the next.

I've got some thoughts about having more control over profile settings which I would have thought are already in their development plans.

Anyway, can't wait to use it to make beer.

 

[MashBag]

I would put money on the truth being, if you are doing a single temperature mash, that If you set the strike temperature right and quickly dough your grains in let them settle for 5 to 10 mins without recirculation. Then stir the......

Hold up.

Are people using (setting) a strike temp before doughing in, when they use an all-in-one?

I haven't done that since... Erm... Cooler box mashing?

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Not sure why you need to manually turn power down during mash when using Pid
My aftermarket PID adjusts the power supplied to get to target maintain it without overshoot.
Only need to adjust power down during boil with condenser lid on to around 25 percent. You shouldn't be using Pid for boil phase.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Hold up.

Are people using (setting) a strike temp before doughing in, when they use an all-in-one?

I haven't done that since... Erm... Cooler box mashing?

On big grain bills in my 70 litre system I do have a corrected strike temperature, step mashing I dough in at 52 temp drops and then I start the mash program with a rest at 50 and leave it to finish the mash.

 

[jambop]

Hold up.

Are people using (setting) a strike temp before doughing in, when they use an all-in-one?

I haven't done that since... Erm... Cooler box mashing?

I have no idea but I always set the stike temperature then dough in. So in answer to your question I do

 

[Davegase]

I have no idea but I always set the stike temperature then dough in. So in answer to your question I do

Me too maybe, I need to rethink

 

[jambop]

Me too maybe, I need to rethink

I see no reason why you would not. There is only 2.5L of liquor below the basket and but the time you have doughed in and let the wort settle then turned on the recirculation and mixed the mash again the temperature will be near perfect by my previous brews and also the heater will be engaged if the temp has fallen at all. I see a swings an roundabouts situation though. In an idea world the system would be isothermal . The system is not isothermal so for me the best get out is using the slightly warmer water below the grain basket to raise any shortfall above it if needed. I may be in the minority but at the first 10 to 15 mins of the mash I would rather be 1or 2 C degrees lower than hotter than the desired mashing temperature as the heater can quite quickly change things but it does take a while to lower temperature unless you add ice or cold water.

 

[foxy]

I am watching this thread with great interest.
I too am a new BZ Gen 4 owner, and new to all grain brewing after doing extract kits for many years.
My first brew (Citra SMASH) in my Gen 4 was 'an experience', with mash temps over and under shooting, which took a lot of fiddling with heater % to finally get it settled.
However...the beer turned out really well, even for a young beer at three weeks old it tastes great.
Being new to all grain brewing, and after my first attempt providing a very nice beer.....I find myself asking, to a newbie, just how important is it that mash temperatures are spot on?

It isn't about getting the temperature spot on it's about getting an even temperature throughout the whole of the mash.
If the temperature of the mash is held within the required temperature aimed for allowing for a degree or two either way we wouldn't see posts asking why the fermentation has stuck.
The most favourable temperature would be 67C where the Alpha and Beta enzymes can both work adequately, a small change of a couple of degrees will give more body if the swing is up or a dryer finish if the swing is down.

Interesting.

Re: the 'not going to reduce mash times just yet' - why not ? I do 30 minute mashes every time now and get good efficiencies.

The 'option pack' (can't remember its proper name) comes with a jacket for the boiler and a wrap for the goose neck. I didn't know what the spare rectangular bit of neoprene was for until I looked at images on the internet (no instructions on how to put it on). By the way, anybody struggling to get the jacket on - use a bit of the grease-proof paper packaging that is wrapped around the boiler. Put a strip behind the bit that goes around the recirculation pipe, then you can slide the other end of the jacket underneath without the velcro stopping it. Then pull out the wrapping and the velcro will catch .

Depends on what is in the mash on the timing flaked adjuncts which don't have the enzymes to convert the starches. If I had taken a gravity reading at the 20 minute mark and again at 60 then I would know how much further the conversion went in the remaining 40 minutes. An alpha-optimum wort can convert to the full extent in around 30 minutes whereas a beta-optimum wort reaches its extent at around 90 minutes so I am thinking of staying for the 60 minutes at the moment.

 

[MashBag]

I see no reason why you would not. There is only 2.5L of liquor below the basket and but the time you have doughed in and let the wort settle then turned on the recirculation and mixed the mash again the temperature will be near perfect by my previous brews and also the heater will be engaged if the temp has fallen at all. I see a swings an roundabouts situation though. In an idea world the system would be isothermal . The system is not isothermal so for me the best get out is using the slightly warmer water below the grain basket to raise any shortfall above it if needed. I may be in the minority but at the first 10 to 15 mins of the mash I would rather be 1or 2 C degrees lower than hotter than the desired mashing temperature as the heater can quite quickly change things but it does take a while to lower temperature unless you add ice or cold water.

Suppose it depends on if you are letting the programmer run things, or if you are using it in manual.

And while I am here.... did you mean "There is only 2.5L of liquor below the basket ". If that's not a typo. Where is the rest of the liquor?


This is so far from what I do now its a good memory test

 

[Twostage]

Funnily enough I'd been thinking about whether or not having a strike temperature was relevant in the BZ as it would quickly correct itself being an active system. Typically doughing in drops the wort by about 3c for me so on balance I think I'll still do it. If you anticipate a 3c drop why wouldn't you compensate in advance . I tend to put my coat on before I go out, not wait until I'm cold and put it on .

I've also been thinking about hop spiders and whirlpools (will the excitement never cease). My thinking is that for my first few brews I'm going to try the hop spider (never used one before). For the whirlpool I'm going to recirculate through the hop basket rather than use the whirlpool arm as I think that would only work if I wasn't using the spider.

 

[The Baron]

Be careful if you recirculate through the hopspider as the flow will be slowed down by the hops blocking the fine mesh and it can create a overflow as the level rises which will wash the hops into the wort and defeat the object of using the spider

 

[MashBag]

Typically doughing in drops the wort by about 3c for me so on balance I think I'll still do it. If you anticipate a 3c drop why wouldn't you compensate in advance . I tend to put my coat on before I go out, not wait until I'm cold and put it on .

Absolutely if you are doing it manually.

I dough in @20 and then come back to remove the malt tube & start boil.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Typically doughing in drops the wort by about 3c for me so on balance I think I'll still do it. If you anticipate a 3c drop why wouldn't you compensate in advance

I was a bit surprised with the G30 that it doesn't raise the water to a strike temperature (higher than the mash temp) for doughing in. But after the first few brews and measuring it during the dough-in, the temperature only dropped by a single degree as a result of doughing in (presumably because the unit itself has a fairly high thermal capacity), and with the heater on and recirc going it raised it back to mash temp in about 5 minutes.

So I just dough in at the target mash temp and don't worry about it

 

[jambop]

Suppose it depends on if you are letting the programmer run things, or if you are using it in manual.

And while I am here.... did you mean "There is only 2.5L of liquor below the basket ". If that's not a typo. Where is the rest of the liquor?


This is so far from what I do now its a good memory test

In the AIO, for example my S40 there is a total strike liquor volume of 2.7 x the grain mass plus 7L of liquor which resides below the grain basket. All of that liquor is brought up to mash strike temperature but only the approx 2.7 x grain mass L in the grain basket is actually used in mashing if the reciculation pump is not in operation. So below the grain basket there is 7L of liquor, the dead volume, which is about 2 or 3C higher temperature than the mash after doughing in. When the pump is engaged this liquor is pumped over the mashing grains. That is why I generally wait for the mashed grains to settle for 10 mins or so before engaging the pump (without heating) at full bore and get that mixed quickly through the mash and let it settle again. My theory is the mash has cooled a bit as has the liquor below and when these are mixed the actual mash temp at that time is very near correct. During the time the mash resettles the dead space is refilled and heating can commence. I get very reasonable mashing effs of around 80 - 84 % using the S40 not too shabby.
The only other way would be a step mash from below desired mashing temp to the desired temp which in my opinion is just too long at a low mash temperature .The Bz 35L only has 2.5L below the malt basket so it is better both ways really. Do you follow and what do you do? I am interested

 

[MashBag]

Okaaaay

In the braumeister I add 29 litres. Pop the malt in the tube and press go.
The controller runs the pump & heater according to the program.


I come back, quite some time later, when it's ready for boil.

 

[MashBag]

The only other way would be a step mash from below desired mashing temp to the desired temp which in my opinion is just too long at a low mash temperature.

I have genuinely never considered (until now) doing it any other way.

I considered manual was for exceptions.. like a flame out hop stand or to correct a misdemeanour. Both of which happen around here

Hence my questions..

 

[foxy]

In the AIO, for example my S40 there is a total strike liquor volume of 2.7 x the grain mass plus 7L of liquor which resides below the grain basket. All of that liquor is brought up to mash strike temperature but only the approx 2.7 x grain mass L in the grain basket is actually used in mashing if the reciculation pump is not in operation. So below the grain basket there is 7L of liquor, the dead volume, which is about 2 or 3C higher temperature than the mash after doughing in. When the pump is engaged this liquor is pumped over the mashing grains. That is why I generally wait for the mashed grains to settle for 10 mins or so before engaging the pump (without heating) at full bore and get that mixed quickly through the mash and let it settle again. My theory is the mash has cooled a bit as has the liquor below and when these are mixed the actual mash temp at that time is very near correct. During the time the mash resettles the dead space is refilled and heating can commence. I get very reasonable mashing effs of around 80 - 84 % using the S40 not too shabby.
The only other way would be a step mash from below desired mashing temp to the desired temp which in my opinion is just too long at a low mash temperature .The Bz 35L only has 2.5L below the malt basket so it is better both ways really. Do you follow and what do you do? I am interested

Exactly, strike water calculators are hit-and-miss for that very reason, the calculators take into account the full volume of water and it is the water in the grain basket taking the hit of the temperature loss to the grain. I do it differently I take my mash water up to strike temperature on manual setting it 2C higher my loss is low because of my volume of water, between 32 and 34 litres of strike water.

 

[peterpiper]

..,..The heating level in the RAPT Portal was set to 35%, ...,,...

What I as yet do not understand is if I set the temp to say 105deg on the display console, why will it not override the RAPT setting ?
:

Jumping back in thread a bit, & noticed you've got heater power control from RAPT, and wondered where abouts you find or enable that?

My RAPT portal (profiles /programmes), only allows temperature; time; alarms and step control (Nov.23 - Jan.24).

While a profile is running, temperature set for step, can't be overridden, which seems a pity. But as profile events (alarms/step control) can be triggered when a set temperature is reached, overriding temperature at panel could mess up the next temperature triggered event.
Also,when a profile is running, the panel temperature up/down buttons are used for manual step control.

 

[Twostage]

Be careful if you recirculate through the hopspider as the flow will be slowed down by the hops blocking the fine mesh and it can create a overflow as the level rises which will wash the hops into the wort and defeat the object of using the spider

Thanks for that. I'll watch out for that and either adjust the flow or abandon the idea.

 

[Twostage]

Okaaaay

In the braumeister I add 29 litres. Pop the malt in the tube and press go.
The controller runs the pump & heater according to the program.


I come back, quite some time later, when it's ready for boil.

I discovered after I did my trial runs that if you programme the BZ to put up a message on the screen when it completes a stage or reaches the set temp it also sends that message to you as an email. So you can sit with your feet up watching the telly waiting for the mash to end or whatever.