Brewzilla Gen 4 - Struggling to get to boil point

[jdunn]

I don't think it is the machine it is more down to the users. One guy posting thought he had issues with the HED plate because is was lopsided . This was not when in the kettle but on a work top... the hop screen/plate assembly was falling to one side or other, naturally the screw protuding from the bottom was causing this. Another had the plate on the wrong way round and another was placing it in the kettle the wrong way up. Many don't understand the heating system and PID interactions. With the PID on and the wrong power percentage the boil will be difficult if not impossible to reach.
All of these AIO systems need to be used by the brewer to gain knowledge of the systems capabilities. The Bz system appears to have a great many user functions and this is where the issue lies most users do not know how to use the system yet but these features can be valuable to the user if they know how to use them. The internet is your friend here because Kegland and many others have some good info out there.
I suppose you could say that this is an equipment problem but others would say the opposite because they have studied the system and figured out how it works. It is fair to say that it would appear the system is not plug and play from the box though but the wealth of knowledge available on the internet for not only the Bz but many other systems is amazing.

Personally I would write and transfer a profile and use it with plain water to see how it goes before doing any real brewing. I think a lot could be learned that way.

Having read a lot and messed about i lot I do tend to agree i think I jumped in out of excitement with a full brew expecting it to be pretty much set up to brew from the get go when it certainly isn't. One problem I do have though which does seem to be an issue is grain getting into the wort through the gaps and this is with standard crushed grain.

 

[jambop]

Having read a lot and messed about i lot I do tend to agree i think I jumped in out of excitement with a full brew expecting it to be pretty much set up to brew from the get go when it certainly isn't. One problem I do have though which does seem to be an issue is grain getting into the wort through the gaps and this is with standard crushed grain.

I have only just bought mine and it won't get used for a while because of an injury. I do however use a GF S40 and never have any issues recirculating wort. I crush my grain really quite course at about 1.4 - 1.5 mm I find this works well and I still get decent efficiency. The other thing is you have to feather the flow rate through the recirculation system so that the flow through is in equilibrium with out flow. You can damage the pump if you do not get that right and there is no wort under the malt basket. The other thing that can happen is scorching and possible element damage if the bottom area is starved of wort and dries out. My advice is this. Do not use the top screen on the malt basket as this may cause compression of the grain bed . Dough in the grains and leave them to settle naturally for 5 - 10 mins measure the top of the mash bed liquid from the top of the grain basket and then gently start recirculation through the grain bed. Monitor the measured distance to try to keep it constant with the first measurement. If the measured distance reduces too much give the grain bed a stir to get the wort through.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Wow, seems several issues are going on with the Brewzilla Gen 4 series.

I should say so.

 

[Twostage]

Finally got round to setting mine up. I plan to test the mash/PID/pump settings with water before I do my first brew. I've watched the Kegland video and I think I understand the PID settings enough.

Must say that an assembly video or more detailed instructions would be good. Most of it is obvious but sometimes you had to match up parts with holes (OK I've got two things that look like handles now, where to they go ? Oh, the glass lid has two holes in it, they most go there). Fitting the jacket I ended up with a spare oblong bit of neoprene and had to look at a picture on the web to see that it goes round the re-circulation pipe.

With the latches for the lid I had to screw them out so they were only just through the thread otherwise when you tried to clip them in place the force pushed the lid off, anyone else found that ? On the flip side I can't see myself ever clipping the lid on, maybe you only do that if you are using it as a still.

Anyway, looking forward to testing it.

 

[gavp1979]

Finally got round to setting mine up. I plan to test the mash/PID/pump settings with water before I do my first brew. I've watched the Kegland video and I think I understand the PID settings enough.

Must say that an assembly video or more detailed instructions would be good. Most of it is obvious but sometimes you had to match up parts with holes (OK I've got two things that look like handles now, where to they go ? Oh, the glass lid has two holes in it, they most go there). Fitting the jacket I ended up with a spare oblong bit of neoprene and had to look at a picture on the web to see that it goes round the re-circulation pipe.

With the latches for the lid I had to screw them out so they were only just through the thread otherwise when you tried to clip them in place the force pushed the lid off, anyone else found that ? On the flip side I can't see myself ever clipping the lid on, maybe you only do that if you are using it as a still.

Anyway, looking forward to testing it.

Is far as I know the latches are indeed only for using it as a still

 

[Davegase]

Finally got round to setting mine up. I plan to test the mash/PID/pump settings with water before I do my first brew. I've watched the Kegland video and I think I understand the PID settings enough.

Must say that an assembly video or more detailed instructions would be good. Most of it is obvious but sometimes you had to match up parts with holes (OK I've got two things that look like handles now, where to they go ? Oh, the glass lid has two holes in it, they most go there). Fitting the jacket I ended up with a spare oblong bit of neoprene and had to look at a picture on the web to see that it goes round the re-circulation pipe.

With the latches for the lid I had to screw them out so they were only just through the thread otherwise when you tried to clip them in place the force pushed the lid off, anyone else found that ? On the flip side I can't see myself ever clipping the lid on, maybe you only do that if you are using it as a still.

Anyway, looking forward to testing it.

Don't use the latches on the lid ! They are only for the stainless steel distilling lid.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Is far as I know the latches are indeed only for using it as a still

Or to hold your condenser lid on with condenser fitted.

 

[tondy79]

Lots of talk about problems with the gen 4, but I would agree with those that say that most of the issues seem to come down to user error in the end, or at least user expectations being misaligned with the realities of this type of system.

The only place where I really feel that improvements should be made is the RAPT interface, where there are things that should be easy to do via the app which seem to be lacking or needlessly complicated.

As others have said, the latches are not for the glass lid. I believe they can be used with either the distillation kit, a stainless lid, or the boiler extension kit. I use them to hang my paddle and lid off.

Specifically to the original point of the thread, I can keep a decent boil at around 70% power with the temp target set to 102°c.

Cheers!

 

[Twostage]

Don't use the latches on the lid ! They are only for the stainless steel distilling lid.

and @gavp1979 . This should be in the manual !

 

[jdunn]

I now think mine was down to user error for the most part. I have just been running a trial on a half batch size with the PID settings as recommended. I set a mash of 67 degrees and overshot to start but then really settled down. This was at 100% power so I think it might be worth setting it to 60 or so as you get close.

 

[jambop]

I now think mine was down to user error for the most part. I have just been running a trial on a half batch size with the PID settings as recommended. I set a mash of 67 degrees and overshot to start but then really settled down. This was at 100% power so I think it might be worth setting it to 60 or so as you get close.View attachment 94038

All part of learning how to use the system. I used my GF S40 for a brew first time and never thought about over shooting the temperature, the beer made was fine . Second time I checked the top of the system vs the bottom and found it was over shooting massively . After using it for quite a time now I know that the mash has to be very closely monitored and the power turned on and off manually to get a stable mash temperature . The temperature control on this system is very basic to say the least it will drop by nearly three degrees before powering on and then over shoot by anything up to six degrees if you let it

 

[The Baron]

I have read plenty of user problems and then researched also watching many vids too before I purchased the Gen 4 which I am awaiting delivery after the new year.
From what I have read and seen it is mainly a issue of setting up the machine properly and as some other members have said users have expected it to do what they want from the box.
The overshoot issue is down to the element being left at 100% power and not programmed in at a lower setting especially in PID mode.
I am expecting some teething problems but have got some setting worked out that will be nearer the mark than what is already set as defaults.
I do agree that better instructions advising users would have stopped a lot of the not so good comments though and some users do not/can't be bothered to get too involved in the settings as it can be one of those things like understanding water treatment which is not everybodies bag.
Time will tell but I think I will be able to get a more accurate mash than I have had before

 

[jdunn]

I have read plenty of user problems and then researched also watching many vids too before I purchased the Gen 4 which I am awaiting delivery after the new year.
From what I have read and seen it is mainly a issue of setting up the machine properly and as some other members have said users have expected it to do what they want from the box.
The overshoot issue is down to the element being left at 100% power and not programmed in at a lower setting especially in PID mode.
I am expecting some teething problems but have got some setting worked out that will be nearer the mark than what is already set as defaults.
I do agree that better instructions advising users would have stopped a lot of the not so good comments though and some users do not/can't be bothered to get too involved in the settings as it can be one of those things like understanding water treatment which is not everybodies bag.
Time will tell but I think I will be able to get a more accurate mash than I have had before

I agree. My issues were expecting it to be pre set to a full brew. It just needs a bit more trial and error than I thought. But after running it several times I think I have it down and just going to run some half batches for my next 3 to 4 brews

 

[Ben034]

Is far as I know the latches are indeed only for using it as a still

You can use a steam condenser as well which utilise the clips I believe

 

[foxy]

Time will tell but I think I will be able to get a more accurate mash than I have had before

Even the mash on a Brewzilla G4 is going to take up a lot of the users input. Like any other SVB they need to be nursed through the mash. For instance, the Rapt BT thermometer can help control the core mash temperature, but it can't, The PID control monitors and adjusts temperatures, yes it does but only where the probe is.
I have been using an SVB since 2017 not counting the BM since 2011, which restricts a hands-on approach. Over that time I have learned that mash temperatures are different all over the mash tun. There are hot and cold spots throughout, for instance doughing in takes approximately 15 to 20 minutes of constant stirring for the mash temperature to become uniform throughout. Stratification in water and indeed the mash is well-documented, but not only that it is the heat absorption of the grain that is allowed for in the dough in temperature is included in the 15-20 minutes.
Grain crush is another part of the mash which contributes to the accuracy of the mash. I was intrigued by a brewer who stated 20 minutes stir then a mash rest of 45 to 60 minutes, also the saccharification times of different grains, some as low as 5 minutes!
A few weeks ago I tested this on my usual grain, crush for the base malt I was using saccharification time was 15 to 20 minutes, I tested my mash at the 20-minute mark with an iodine test, and sure enough, it was done, not that I would reduce my mash times just yet.
I repeated the same brew last Thursday this time with what would be called a perfect grain crush, now all grains aren't of equal size so getting the perfect crush for a home brewer will leave a percentage of the grains without a scratch.
Here are the results.
My usual crush after 20 minutes using the iodine test.

The "Perfect crush" over a one-hour mash. The samples were taken at 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes and 60 minutes top left-hand corner. If I had checked the grain after 60 minutes before mash out I am sure I would have found pockets of unconverted grain. Needless to say, the efficiency was far superior on the grain which was milled just a tab over the gap of the "Perfect Crush" I will also mention that I did stir throughout the 60 minutes intermittently keeping the temperature stable.

My biggest worry is if I owned a Brewzilla 4G is the long heat exchange taking place from the pump up the return pipe and the big gooseneck. Easily fixed with some lagging.
Sorry for the long post but marketing hype isn't meant to be fair dinkum.

 

[Sprocker]

I am watching this thread with great interest.
I too am a new BZ Gen 4 owner, and new to all grain brewing after doing extract kits for many years.
My first brew (Citra SMASH) in my Gen 4 was 'an experience', with mash temps over and under shooting, which took a lot of fiddling with heater % to finally get it settled.
However...the beer turned out really well, even for a young beer at three weeks old it tastes great.
Being new to all grain brewing, and after my first attempt providing a very nice beer.....I find myself asking, to a newbie, just how important is it that mash temperatures are spot on?

 

[RoomWithABrew]

You can use a steam condenser as well which utilise the clips I believe

Thanks for the second of post 67.

 

[jambop]

I am watching this thread with great interest.
I too am a new BZ Gen 4 owner, and new to all grain brewing after doing extract kits for many years.
My first brew (Citra SMASH) in my Gen 4 was 'an experience', with mash temps over and under shooting, which took a lot of fiddling with heater % to finally get it settled.
However...the beer turned out really well, even for a young beer at three weeks old it tastes great.
Being new to all grain brewing, and after my first attempt providing a very nice beer.....I find myself asking, to a newbie, just how important is it that mash temperatures are spot on?

We as home brewers have a notion that you can only make good beer if the mash temperature stays as near constant to the desired temperature. I would put money on the truth being, if you are doing a single temperature mash, that If you set the strike temperature right and quickly dough your grains in let them settle for 5 to 10 mins without recirculation. Then stir the mash again and turn the pump on full rate without heating to get the hot liquor under the grain basket into the mashing grains and stir the mash once more and let it settle again for 5 to 10 mins before turning on the pump at a suitable rate with heating to maintain the mash temp as best the controler can for the rest of the 60 or 90 minute mash time you will get a great result even with over shoots. The conversion is finished in the first 30 minutes the rest of the time is just washing the sugars out of the crushed grains into the wort. If the kettle is insulated and the lid is on heat loss should be minimal during the crucial first 20 mins the rest is just to make sure and as said wash those sugars out ... hops their variety and their utilisation is where the magic happens, just my opinion though.

 

[Twostage]

Even the mash on a Brewzilla G4 is going to take up a lot of the users input. Like any other SVB they need to be nursed through the mash. For instance, the Rapt BT thermometer can help control the core mash temperature, but it can't, The PID control monitors and adjusts temperatures, yes it does but only where the probe is.
I have been using an SVB since 2017 not counting the BM since 2011, which restricts a hands-on approach. Over that time I have learned that mash temperatures are different all over the mash tun. There are hot and cold spots throughout, for instance doughing in takes approximately 15 to 20 minutes of constant stirring for the mash temperature to become uniform throughout. Stratification in water and indeed the mash is well-documented, but not only that it is the heat absorption of the grain that is allowed for in the dough in temperature is included in the 15-20 minutes.
Grain crush is another part of the mash which contributes to the accuracy of the mash. I was intrigued by a brewer who stated 20 minutes stir then a mash rest of 45 to 60 minutes, also the saccharification times of different grains, some as low as 5 minutes!
A few weeks ago I tested this on my usual grain, crush for the base malt I was using saccharification time was 15 to 20 minutes, I tested my mash at the 20-minute mark with an iodine test, and sure enough, it was done, not that I would reduce my mash times just yet.
I repeated the same brew last Thursday this time with what would be called a perfect grain crush, now all grains aren't of equal size so getting the perfect crush for a home brewer will leave a percentage of the grains without a scratch.
Here are the results.
My usual crush after 20 minutes using the iodine test.
View attachment 94080
The "Perfect crush" over a one-hour mash. The samples were taken at 15 minutes, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, 45 minutes and 60 minutes top left-hand corner. If I had checked the grain after 60 minutes before mash out I am sure I would have found pockets of unconverted grain. Needless to say, the efficiency was far superior on the grain which was milled just a tab over the gap of the "Perfect Crush" I will also mention that I did stir throughout the 60 minutes intermittently keeping the temperature stable.
View attachment 94081
My biggest worry is if I owned a Brewzilla 4G is the long heat exchange taking place from the pump up the return pipe and the big gooseneck. Easily fixed with some lagging.
Sorry for the long post but marketing hype isn't meant to be fair dinkum.

Interesting.

Re: the 'not going to reduce mash times just yet' - why not ? I do 30 minute mashes every time now and get good efficiencies.

The 'option pack' (can't remember its proper name) comes with a jacket for the boiler and a wrap for the goose neck. I didn't know what the spare rectangular bit of neoprene was for until I looked at images on the internet (no instructions on how to put it on). By the way, anybody struggling to get the jacket on - use a bit of the grease-proof paper packaging that is wrapped around the boiler. Put a strip behind the bit that goes around the recirculation pipe, then you can slide the other end of the jacket underneath without the velcro stopping it. Then pull out the wrapping and the velcro will catch .

 

[Agentgonzo]

.I find myself asking, to a newbie, just how important is it that mash temperatures are spot on?

Getting mash temperature spot on isn't that important for homebrewers.

Before AIOs, HERMS and RIMS systems, the standard 3 vessel setup for homebrewers was an insulated mash tun. You'd dough in and leave it an hour to complete the mash. Full conversion would easily be done within the hour and it was common for the mash temperature to drop by a few degrees during the mash. Many people still brew like this.

A few degrees difference in temperature in the mash results in a few percentage points difference in attenuation when it ferments which results in a tiny fraction of a percent ABV in the finished beer.

So does this matter to a newbie (getting the temperature spot on)? No, there are so many other things that will make a much bigger impact.
Does it matter to a seasoned homebrewer? Probably not. The difference will likely to be too small to taste, but you many get joy from hitting your numbers exactly.