Brewzilla cooling and whirlpool

[Agentgonzo]

In your opinion is there anything you miss out on by not including the 'bits' at the bottom? I use whirlfloc and have no doubt if I waited I could could rack very clear wort into the fermenter. I'm just concerned I'll miss out on the flavour/proteins/character that may be in the residue...?

Genuine question. I prefer flavour over clarity but have produced very clear brews which I consider a bonus...

No, you won't miss out on anything (flavour/proteins/character) by leaving the bits (trub) behind - otherwise everyone would always be stirring up all the gunk to transfer to the fermenter.

Counterintuitively, you don't need clear wort to get clear beer. Clear wort will ferment into clear beer, and cloudy wort will have all the particulates drop to the bottom of the fermenter and also ferment into clear beer.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Spoke to a master brewer last night who was invited to our local home brew club...lifetime career in brewing, master brewer at Bass then Director of brewing at Bass, Molston Coors, Guiness, brewed all over the world, got all the qualifications you can possibly get in brewing and has taught at universities. The official line from him is that it doesn't matter if you stir in or remove the hot/cold break. Its not soluble...its come out of solution as you've brought the wort upto the boil so it'll always drop out of suspension and it's either captured at the bottom of the kettle or any of it that ends up in the fermenter settles to the bottom of the fermenter. It really doesn't matter if you leave it in or remove it or filter it out..it doesn't impact flavour or clarity. So stop fretting over it and crack on. If you have clarity issues with your beer then you need to look elsewhere. I certainly haven't had clarity issues....protofloc in the boil a good cold crash after fermentation and before transfer to keg and time at low temperature has always resulted in a crystal clear beer whenever I've wanted it.

 

[sifty]

Really interesting, cheers.
Just did a Kölsch the other day and toyed with the idea of only transferring clear wort into the fermenter. Time pressures meant I just did the usual and opened the tap, leaving only ~ 40mm of gunky residue in the kettle.

I've found any solids settle out as you say, especially with a cold crash and/or finings. I shall crack on as you suggest...

 

[foxy]

Spoke to a master brewer last night who was invited to our local home brew club...lifetime career in brewing, master brewer at Bass then Director of brewing at Bass, Molston Coors, Guiness, brewed all over the world, got all the qualifications you can possibly get in brewing and has taught at universities. The official line from him is that it doesn't matter if you stir in or remove the hot/cold break. Its not soluble...its come out of solution as you've brought the wort upto the boil so it'll always drop out of suspension and it's either captured at the bottom of the kettle or any of it that ends up in the fermenter settles to the bottom of the fermenter. It really doesn't matter if you leave it in or remove it or filter it out..it doesn't impact flavour or clarity. So stop fretting over it and crack on. If you have clarity issues with your beer then you need to look elsewhere. I certainly haven't had clarity issues....protofloc in the boil a good cold crash after fermentation and before transfer to keg and time at low temperature has always resulted in a crystal clear beer whenever I've wanted it.

What was the name of the master brewer you spoke to?
Probably the highest profile master brewer on the UK register is Timothy O'Rourke, and he certainly doesn't advocate, not only hot side trub going into the fermenter but the cold break also. As do almost all pro brewers they go to great lengths to keep the trub out. The breweries which can afford it use a centrifuge to separate the trub from the wort while others transfer to the fermenter then dump it after it has settled.
Boulton, Quain and Bamforth were all employed by Bass and if you read any of their publications removal of hot side trub is a must.
If one is bottling then the beer will clarify no matter what, can't say the same for the flavours.

For me I highly recommend taking note of the advice of the experts, it has certainly advanced me with my brewing endeavors. But at the end of the day it is how far the home brewer wants to progress with this great hobby.

Some reading.
https://www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/beer_brewing_wort_cooling/removal_cold_break.htmhttps://www.morebeer.com/articles/Hot_Trub_Formation_And_Removal
I have posted this a few times on here, while it is a blog the blogger is quoting prominent figures in the brewing world. (Also the site has a great free library)
https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/trub-seperation-why-and-how/
A discussion on the Pro Brewer forum
https://discussions.probrewer.com/f...-what-s-wrong-with-getting-trub-in-fermenters

 

[hoppyscotty]

What was the name of the master brewer you spoke to?
Probably the highest profile master brewer on the UK register is Timothy O'Rourke, and he certainly doesn't advocate, not only hot side trub going into the fermenter but the cold break also. As do almost all pro brewers they go to great lengths to keep the trub out. The breweries which can afford it use a centrifuge to separate the trub from the wort while others transfer to the fermenter then dump it after it has settled.
Boulton, Quain and Bamforth were all employed by Bass and if you read any of their publications removal of hot side trub is a must.
If one is bottling then the beer will clarify no matter what, can't say the same for the flavours.

For me I highly recommend taking note of the advice of the experts, it has certainly advanced me with my brewing endeavors. But at the end of the day it is how far the home brewer wants to progress with this great hobby.

Some reading.
https://www.beer-brewing.com/beer_brewing/beer_brewing_wort_cooling/removal_cold_break.htmhttps://www.morebeer.com/articles/Hot_Trub_Formation_And_Removal
I have posted this a few times on here, while it is a blog the blogger is quoting prominent figures in the brewing world. (Also the site has a great free library)
https://www.themodernbrewhouse.com/trub-seperation-why-and-how/
A discussion on the Pro Brewer forum
https://discussions.probrewer.com/f...-what-s-wrong-with-getting-trub-in-fermenters

If the pro brewers cant even come to a consensus on it then that in of itself is a clear indication that it doesn't really matter. His experience and background was obviously in the huge commercial industry...he'd never home-brewed and In a massive scale commercial setting where there are no people even on the brewery floor and everything is fully automated and operated from a remote control room then they're not going to waste labour and time on anything that doesn't have an impact on the final result. It's all about the numbers. I've watched enough pro brewer interviews and heard enough podcasts to know there is a massive variety of opinion and preferences out there, but most of those are not anywhere near the scale of your Molson Coors and Guinness's and are much more hands on and 'craft'.

Talking to someone with a lifetime careers worth of experience is fascinating experience. Just highlights that even though I'm following the correct steps to make decent beer I really have little understanding of what's actually going on and why it works.

I completely agree it seems perfectly sensible to ensure you have as clear wort as possible going into the fermenter and I've never really thought too hard about the hot and cold break being transferred though I make as much effort as possible to prevent grain and hops being transferred. Of the main YouTube home brewers that I've followed as I've started my homebrew journey they all seem to just stir it in if they mention it at all so I've just followed suit. Think if it were an issue for clarity then I certainly should never have brewed a crystal clear beer, but I have and I've never really been too bothered about clarity or paid much attention to it. As long as the flavour, mouthfeel, head quality etc are all there then clarity is a secondary thing and more aesthetic for me.

 

[foxy]

If the pro brewers cant even come to a consensus on it then that in of itself is a clear indication that it doesn't really matter. His experience and background was obviously in the huge commercial industry...he'd never home-brewed and In a massive scale commercial setting where there are no people even on the brewery floor and everything is fully automated and operated from a remote control room then they're not going to waste labour and time on anything that doesn't have an impact on the final result. It's all about the numbers. I've watched enough pro brewer interviews and heard enough podcasts to know there is a massive variety of opinion and preferences out there, but most of those are not anywhere near the scale of your Molson Coors and Guinness's and are much more hands on and 'craft'.

Talking to someone with a lifetime careers worth of experience is fascinating experience. Just highlights that even though I'm following the correct steps to make decent beer I really have little understanding of what's actually going on and why it works.

I completely agree it seems perfectly sensible to ensure you have as clear wort as possible going into the fermenter and I've never really thought too hard about the hot and cold break being transferred though I make as much effort as possible to prevent grain and hops being transferred. Of the main YouTube home brewers that I've followed as I've started my homebrew journey they all seem to just stir it in if they mention it at all so I've just followed suit. Think if it were an issue for clarity then I certainly should never have brewed a crystal clear beer, but I have and I've never really been too bothered about clarity or paid much attention to it. As long as the flavour, mouthfeel, head quality etc are all there then clarity is a secondary thing and more aesthetic for me.

Seemed to me they all agreed and put the poster on the right track on the pro brewer forum.
It isn't just about clarity, it is also about taste carried over. If one spends 4-5 hours on a brewing, surely it is in a brewers interest to get it right. As your own Henry Royce in his wisdom says, 'Accept nothing which is nearly right or good enough'
I met a bloke in a pub once similar to the master brewer you met, claimed he had shook hands with John L Sullivan even though he was only about 40 years of age. Beware of false prophets and false master brewers.

 

[Agentgonzo]

If the pro brewers cant even come to a consensus on it then that in of itself is a clear indication that it doesn't really matter.

If you cherry pick which ones you listen to, then you can say they do have a consensus . Then you can justify your cherry picking by saying the ones you didn't pick are wrong anyway because they don't agree with the consensus! Simples.

But seriously, what you say. If everyone agrees on the same thing, you can trust them. If they don't (and this thread is evidence of it), then there's probably not a single simple answer