Brew strong and dilute

[MashBag]

I ferment (& bottle from) my BM20. This means I have a huge amount of space in it, after boil.

I could brew strong and then dilute before ferment.

I reckon I could almost double my output.

Question. Do I need to treat the water I dilute with?


@peebee I know you're there

 

[pilgrimhudd]

I often do this, youu just have to adjust the hop additions accordingly. You should treat the water to whatever you treated the mash water but as I generally don't bother with anything it doesn't apply to me!

 

[Clarence]

I ferment (& bottle from) my BM20. This means I have a huge amount of space in it, after boil.

I could brew strong and then dilute before ferment.

I reckon I could almost double my output.

Question. Do I need to treat the water I dilute with?


@peebee I know you're there

Yes you do. You need to treat for chlorine/chloramine and ideally should adjust the carbonate content to the same as your other water, although it's not as critical as the mash and sparge water unless your water is really crazy. I don't think there's any need to adjust the mineral salts at this stage.

 

[MashBag]

What is this "sparge" you speak of

Seriously, treat for just chlorine and alkalinity then. Thinking: AMS but no DWB

Interestingly I don't treat for chlorine in the brew.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

aka high-gravity brewing, it's the norm for the likes of Carling. Whether it has any effect on the quality of your beer I leave for you to deduce...

 

[MashBag]

Hmm. That doesn't sound good

 

[Clarence]

Hmm. That doesn't sound good

Carling's carp because it's carp. I don't know what concentration they liquor back from, but the logical conclusion of concentration is to end up with a tin of hopped extract! Guinness brew over-strength, too.
If I'm brewing indoors I liquor back to 20 litres from 15. If I'm brewing outdoors I brew full length. I've never noticed any difference in the quality of the beers. You need to make a small adjustment to the bittering hops to allow for the reduced utilistion due to increased boil gravity. Late hops don't seem to matter. I would have thought I'd get better flavour from late hops in the full boil as there's more liquid to dissolve the aromatics, but in practice, I can't tell the difference.

Here's a thought, too. Brewing short and overstrength saves energy and fuel in an already energy-wasteful process. But I'm not sure I'd want to brew to 50% of target length.

 

[peebee]

@peebee I know you're there

I know you probably know. Don't care. But I've nothing to add 'cos I only ever brew strong ... to drink it strong. I'm terrified to do anything other than add yeast after boiling (that's scary enough, casking is scary²) which is why I measure everything to the nth degree so it ain't doin' anything unexpected.

Watered down beer ...

 

[Twostage]

I occasionally dilute back, not in any great quantity though. I think the last time I added about 1.5 ltrs to 8 litres. I don't treat the added water as I mostly use bottled water anyway.

I've read online that 20% is OK but I haven't found a recommendation to go as far as 50:50. I would try it, though, to see what happened.

 

[MashBag]

Carling's carp because it's carp. I don't know what concentration they liquor back from, but the logical conclusion of concentration is to end up with a tin of hopped extract! Guinness brew over-strength, too.
If I'm brewing indoors I liquor back to 20 litres from 15. If I'm brewing outdoors I brew full length. I've never noticed any difference in the quality of the beers. You need to make a small adjustment to the bittering hops to allow for the reduced utilistion due to increased boil gravity. Late hops don't seem to matter. I would have thought I'd get better flavour from late hops in the full boil as there's more liquid to dissolve the aromatics, but in practice, I can't tell the difference.

Here's a thought, too. Brewing short and overstrength saves energy and fuel in an already energy-wasteful process. But I'm not sure I'd want to brew to 50% of target length.

Cracking detail. Thanks.
20 from 15l is 25% which works for me.
I have often done and advocated "top up the fermenter" which is in effect no difference.

Thank you.

 

[Sadfield]

I'm surprised 'no chillers' don't already do this using frozen water.

5L of frozen water into 15L of boiling wort will reduce the temperature to 75°c. Perfect for a hop steep. In 4-5 hours at c20°C ambient, you'd be ready to pitch.
Although, adding at 60°C would get the wort through the danger zone quicker.


https://www.omnicalculator.com/food/water-cooling

 

[Caramel Ox]

I'm surprised 'no chillers' don't already do this using frozen water.

5L of frozen water into 15L of boiling wort will reduce the temperature to 75°c. Perfect for a hop steep. In 4-5 hours at c20°C ambient, you'd be ready to pitch.
Although, adding at 60°C would get the wort through the danger zone quicker.


https://www.omnicalculator.com/food/water-cooling

Your numbers would be right for 5L of unfrozen water at zero degrees, because of the phase change ice would be much more effective. If the ice is assumed to be at -18 the end result would be 51 degrees see Online Conversion - Mixing Water

I suppose the point is that you have to pre boil and freeze that water in a sanitary condition so that is more work.

 

[Sadfield]

Your numbers would be right for 5L of unfrozen water at zero degrees, because of the phase change ice would be much more effective. If the ice is assumed to be at -18 the end result would be 51 degrees see Online Conversion - Mixing Water

I suppose the point is that you have to pre boil and freeze that water in a sanitary condition so that is more work.

Supermarket spring water would be the easiest option. In the freezer to 0°c or beyond, then cut the bottles open to decant.

 

[MashBag]

I suppose the point is that you have to pre boil and freeze that water in a sanitary condition so that is more work.

If it is potable, why boil it?

 

[MashBag]

Your numbers would be right for 5L of unfrozen water at zero degrees, because of the phase change ice would be much more effective. If the ice is assumed to be at -18 the end result would be 51 degrees see Online Conversion - Mixing Water

I suppose the point is that you have to pre boil and freeze that water in a sanitary condition so that is more work.

I have used 4litre milk cartoons as ice packs to reduce temps. They are surprisingly good.

But as for boiling water then before freezing? What? Why? Has it suddenly become toxic on the way to the freezer?

 

[Caramel Ox]

For the same reason that you boiled the wort - to reduce the number of spoilage organisms in it. Tap or spring water from a bottle could have 100 cfu/ml and that’s only a periodic test you won’t know when it’s a bad day. In practice tap water tends to have nothing growing in it due to residual chlorine or chloramine but that’s another thing you don’t want in your beer.

If you liquor back 10% immediately after the boil it will still be so hot there is unlikely to be a problem.

 

[MashBag]

Sorry we are going to have to disagree on this on. Adding perfectly drinkable tap water directly into beer is fine. Freezing tap water as also fine if it is added to the beer directly.

Boiling is not the only preservative or cleaning process in beer.

I would agree if you had said the the tap water was poor quality or overly chlorined as to effect an off flavour.

I really rail against the attitude that everything needs to be bleached, boiled and beaten into sterility. We are made up of and live with millions of microorganisms, we don't need to fight them all the time. A better word (that also begins with b ) is balance.

Rantover="true"

 

[Birdsnestbrewery]

Sorry we are going to have to disagree on this on. Adding perfectly drinkable tap water directly into beer is fine. Freezing tap water as also fine if it is added to the beer directly.

Boiling is not the only preservative or cleaning process in beer.

I would agree if you had said the the tap water was poor quality or overly chlorined as to effect an off flavour.

I really rail against the attitude that everything needs to be bleached, boiled and beaten into sterility. We are made up of and live with millions of microorganisms, we don't need to fight them all the time. A better word (that also begins with b ) is balance.

Rantover="true"

Good point and on balance I agree. But it's not just adding water to beer, it's adding water to wort pre fermentation, which gives any nasties the chance to grow, so you need to be sure that said water is clean. Straight from the tap is probably fine.

 

[Cwrw666]

I once did a double brew. Brown ale - 40 L from a 30 L boiler. Turned out a reasonable brew but definitely didn't taste the same as a 20 L brew would have been. I suspect a different result from the more concentrated mash and different hop utilisation in the boil.

 

[Twostage]

Sorry we are going to have to disagree on this on. Adding perfectly drinkable tap water directly into beer is fine. Freezing tap water as also fine if it is added to the beer directly.

Boiling is not the only preservative or cleaning process in beer.

I would agree if you had said the the tap water was poor quality or overly chlorined as to effect an off flavour.

I really rail against the attitude that everything needs to be bleached, boiled and beaten into sterility. We are made up of and live with millions of microorganisms, we don't need to fight them all the time. A better word (that also begins with b ) is balance.

Rantover="true"

In XML that would be :-

<rant>
Sorry...
</rant>

Anyway, yes. I once did a test brew using DME and hop tea which I made in the kitchen and nothing was sterilized. Just washed and rinsed unless it had already been and was dry in the cupboard or drawer. There was no boil, just poured the DME into the fermenter. Bottling was pouring out of a 5 litre tesco water bottle I'd used as a fermenter into fizzy water bottles using a funnel which made a great job of aerating it. No problems and tasted like beer.