Belgian Beer - Recipe check and advice

[chthon]

What fermentation profile would you suggest? And 1 pack or 2? What ABV do you get - Beersmith is saying 11% max but I've seen others say as high as 14%.

I've also read up a bit on Special B and agree it has a place in this beer. So here's version whatever of the recipe:

Mash or Steep Grains
Mash Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
6.00 kg​	Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (5.5 EBC)​	Grain​	1​	78.9 %​	3.91 L​
0.35 kg​	Melanoiden Malt (39.4 EBC)​	Grain​	2​	4.6 %​	0.23 L​
0.20 kg​	Special B Malt (354.6 EBC)​	Grain​	3​	2.6 %​	0.13 L​

Mash Steps

Name​	Description​	Step Temperature​	Step Time​
Protein Rest​	Add 20.58 L of water at 53.4 C​	50.0 C​	30 min​
Saccharification​	Heat to 68.9 C over 15 min​	68.9 C​	420 min​
Mash Out​	Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min​	75.6 C​	10 min​

• Sparge Water Acid: None
• Fly sparge with 18.54 L water at 75.6 C
• Add water to achieve boil volume of 29.06 L
• Estimated pre-boil gravity is 1.051 SG

Boil Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
25.00 g​	Perle [8.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min​	Hop​	4​	20.7 IBUs​	-​
25.00 g​	Styrian Goldings [5.40 %] - Boil 20.0 min​	Hop​	5​	8.4 IBUs​	-​
0.25 Items​	Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)​	Fining​	6​	-​	-​
10.00 g​	Hallertauer Hersbrucker [4.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min​	Hop​	7​	2.0 IBUs​	-​
1.00 kg​	Candi Sugar, Dark [Boil] [Boil for 15 min] (homemade)​	Sugar​	8​	13.2 %​	0.63 L​
0.05 kg​	Molasses [Boil] [Boil for 15 min](157.6 EBC)​	Sugar​	9​	0.7 %​	0.04 L​

My own calculator says for a pitch rate of 0,75 that two sachets is good.

Pitch at 18° C and let it rip.

 

[-Bezza-]

My own calculator says for a pitch rate of 0,75 that two sachets is good.

Pitch at 18° C and let it rip.

In the final stages of planning this one and just looking at the fermentation temperatures.

MJ say the yeast is good between 18-28C. I've been reading on the US forums that people are fermenting between 25-30C on this one and that it's just ripping through everything, getting down to very low SG readings - 1.002 or less! I'd rather keep a bit more weight in my beer. On the other hand, lower temps are leading to stuck fermentation and nothing that can be done to get it back to life.

I was therefore thinking of pitching at 21C and then going to 25C after 3 days, cold crash at 3C for a week, then leave for a month at ambient (~16-20C depending on weather) and another 3 months at 7C.

Thoughts or experience with this yeast?

 

[chthon]

In the final stages of planning this one and just looking at the fermentation temperatures.

MJ say the yeast is good between 18-28C. I've been reading on the US forums that people are fermenting between 25-30C on this one and that it's just ripping through everything, getting down to very low SG readings - 1.002 or less! I'd rather keep a bit more weight in my beer. On the other hand, lower temps are leading to stuck fermentation and nothing that can be done to get it back to life.

I was therefore thinking of pitching at 21C and then going to 25C after 3 days, cold crash at 3C for a week, then leave for a month at ambient (~16-20C depending on weather) and another 3 months at 7C.

Thoughts or experience with this yeast?

I left it lagering for six weeks, then bottled, could drink it two weeks later. I did lager in the winter though.

 

[user 18729]

In the final stages of planning this one and just looking at the fermentation temperatures.

MJ say the yeast is good between 18-28C. I've been reading on the US forums that people are fermenting between 25-30C on this one and that it's just ripping through everything, getting down to very low SG readings - 1.002 or less! I'd rather keep a bit more weight in my beer. On the other hand, lower temps are leading to stuck fermentation and nothing that can be done to get it back to life.

I was therefore thinking of pitching at 21C and then going to 25C after 3 days, cold crash at 3C for a week, then leave for a month at ambient (~16-20C depending on weather) and another 3 months at 7C.

Thoughts or experience with this yeast?

I think with most Belgian strains a good thing to do is allow the beer to gradually ramp up if you’re after those complex esters rather than being rigid with a set temperature. There are some great podcasts about this.

However, I’ve tried some phenomenal beers from @strangesteve where he’s fermented at the lower end (18 degrees IIRC) so I think it’s well worth experimenting

 

[thegrantickle]

I like to do many more steps on my mash for Belgian style beers. I love a decoction but an infusion step is also fine. I'd do 42, 52, 64, 70 with mash out/sparge at 76/77.

I'd also probably sack off the biscuit malt completely and scale down the aromatic.

My 2 cents

 

[-Bezza-]

I like to do many more steps on my mash for Belgian style beers. I love a decoction but an infusion step is also fine. I'd do 42, 52, 64, 70 with mash out/sparge at 76/77.

I'd also probably sack off the biscuit malt completely and scale down the aromatic.

My 2 cents

The grain bill has gone through so many iterations already, I'm not going to change it anymore! I'd rather something with a bit more interest and complexity for this one.

What do all those extra mash steps achieve? My brew schedule requires me to leave one step for about 6 hours, so which would it be?

 

[-Bezza-]

I think with most Belgian strains a good thing to do is allow the beer to gradually ramp up if you’re after those complex esters rather than being rigid with a set temperature. There are some great podcasts about this.

However, I’ve tried some phenomenal beers from @strangesteve where he’s fermented at the lower end (18 degrees IIRC) so I think it’s well worth experimenting

With my inkbird, I can program steps in, so recon it's worth doing 18C for three days then increasing by 2 degrees each day over 4 days, then leaving for another week?

 

[Rochefort]

With my inkbird, I can program steps in, so recon it's worth doing 18C for three days then increasing by 2 degrees each day over 4 days, then leaving for another week?

No, pitch it at 18C and then let it free rise up to whatever maximum temperature suits the flavours you want. If you initially disconnect your heater and keep an eye on the temp, once it reaches the maximum temperature you are happy with reconnect the heater and keep it there until it reaches TG.

As you can see from the chart below, you get more bubblegum, fruit esters and (sadly) solvent above 24 C. I don't know which Wyeast strain is closest to M41in terms of flavour, but you get more esters in bigger beers anyway. So I'd stay below 24 C for this one.

 

[-Bezza-]

I'm finally getting around to brewing the big ballsy Belgian beer but don't have the time or inclination to make my own candi sugar so going to buy it.

The local homebrew shop does the Breferm dark which is 425EBC. Beersmith is suggesting 1kg of that will make for a very dark beer, which is fine, but just want to check it won't heavily influence the flavour? Alternative is 500g of dark and 500g light, which looks like it has no colour at all.

 

[Sadfield]

If the latter, instead of light, 500g of golden Syrup, table sugar or even demarera, might be a cheaper option. There's some interesting observations in part 1 and 2 of this...

https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/02/belgian-sugar-experiment.html?m=1
https://www.themadfermentationist.com/2007/10/belgian-sugar-experiment-round-2_29.html?m=1

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

As @Sadfield said, the light stuff is just sugar. You can add as much of the darker stuff as is needed to get the colour and then add as much sugar as needed to get to the gravity or percentage you want.

Alternatively buy some lighter candi. The stuff I get from THBC is much lighter and I use 1Kg in a 20l batch of Tripel. This is a link to it…

https://www.thehomebrewcompany.co.uk/candy-sugar-crystals-1kg-dark-p-2952.html?cPath=3_92

 

[-Bezza-]

So what's all this nonsense about inverting sugar for brewing all about then? Either way, 500g dark candi and 500g golden syrup sounds fun. 750g of the Sainsbury's own brand is only £1.35. I would chuck the whole lot in but think I'm already at the limit of what the yeast can handle.

Edit: 750g golden syrup and 250g candi brings the colour back to 41EBC which is more preferable, and keeps me at 11% ABV.

 

[-Bezza-]

Final recipe, until I change my mind again:

Strong Dark Belgian
Belgian Dark Strong Ale (18 E)


Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 19.00 L
Boil Size: 24.90 L
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 22.40 L

Brewer: -Bezza-
Equipment: Grainfather_18.5L Keg (20l batch)
Efficiency: 65.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 73.6 %

Prepare for Brewing

• Total Water Needed: 34.96 L
• Mash Water Acid: None

Water Prep

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
34.96 L​	-MY WATER-​	Water​	1​	-​	-​
0.72 g​	Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Mash)​	Water Agent​	2​	-​	-​
0.50 Items​	Campden Tablets (Mash)​	Water Agent​	3​	-​	-​
0.17 g​	Calcium Chloride (Mash)​	Water Agent​	4​	-​	-​

Mash or Steep Grains
Mash Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
6.00 kg​	Pale Malt (2 Row) Bel (7.0 EBC)​	Grain​	5​	74.1 %​	3.91 L​
0.35 kg​	Melanoiden Malt (70.0 EBC)​	Grain​	6​	4.3 %​	0.23 L​
0.20 kg​	Special B Malt (275.0 EBC)​	Grain​	7​	2.5 %​	0.13 L​
0.47 g​	Epsom Salt (MgSO4) (Sparge)​	Water Agent​	8​	-​	-​
0.11 g​	Calcium Chloride (Sparge)​	Water Agent​	9​	-​	-​

Mash Steps

Name​	Description​	Step Temperature​	Step Time​
Protein Rest​	Add 21.50 L of water at 44.3 C​	42.0 C​	30 min​
Mash Step​	Heat to 52.0 C over 6 min​	52.0 C​	30 min​
Mash Step​	Heat to 64.0 C over 8 min​	64.0 C​	30 min​
Mash Step​	Heat to 70.0 C over 15 min​	70.0 C​	420 min​
Mash Out​	Heat to 77.0 C over 20 min​	77.0 C​	10 min​

• Sparge Water Acid: None
• Fly sparge with 13.46 L water at 75.6 C
• Add water to achieve boil volume of 24.90 L
• Estimated pre-boil gravity is 1.059 SG

Boil Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
32.00 g​	Perle [6.10 %] - Boil 60.0 min​	Hop​	10​	18.3 IBUs​	-​
32.00 g​	Styrian Goldings [3.33 %] - Boil 20.0 min​	Hop​	11​	5.9 IBUs​	-​
1.20 kg​	Lyle's Golden Syrup [Boil] [Boil for 15 min](0.0 EBC)​	Extract​	12​	14.8 %​	0.85 L​
0.25 Items​	Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)​	Fining​	13​	-​	-​
12.00 g​	Hallertauer Hersbrucker [2.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min​	Hop​	14​	1.3 IBUs​	-​
0.25 kg​	Candi Sugar, Dark [Boil] [Boil for 15 min](430.0 EBC)​	Sugar​	15​	3.1 %​	0.16 L​
0.10 kg​	Molasses [Boil] [Boil for 15 min](157.6 EBC)​	Sugar​	16​	1.2 %​	0.07 L​

• Estimated Post Boil Vol: 22.40 L and Est Post Boil Gravity: 1.094 SG

Cool and Transfer Wort

• Cool wort to fermentation temperature
• Transfer wort to fermenter
• Add water if needed to achieve final volume of 19.00 L

Pitch Yeast and Measure Gravity and Volume
Fermentation Ingredients

Amt​	Name​	Type​	#​	%/IBU​	Volume​
2.0 pkg​	Belgian Ale (Mangrove Jack's #M41)​	Yeast​	17​	-​	-​

• Measure Actual Original Gravity _______ (Target: 1.094 SG)
• Measure Actual Batch Volume _______ (Target: 19.00 L)

Fermentation

• Primary Fermentation (3.00 days at 18.0 C ending at 18.0 C)
• Secondary Fermentation (11.00 days at 24.0 C ending at 24.0 C)
• Tertiary Fermentation (7.00 days at 3.0 C ending at 3.0 C)

Dry Hop and Bottle/Keg

• Measure Final Gravity: _________ (Estimate: 1.005 SG)
• Carbonation: Keg with 1.83 bar
• Age beer for 180.00 days at 12.0 C

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

So what's all this nonsense about inverting sugar for brewing all about then? Either way, 500g dark candi and 500g golden syrup sounds fun. 750g of the Sainsbury's own brand is only £1.35. I would chuck the whole lot in but think I'm already at the limit of what the yeast can handle.

Edit: 750g golden syrup and 250g candi brings the colour back to 41EBC which is more preferable, and keeps me at 11% ABV.

Invert sugar and candi sugar are not the same. Invert sugar has a few properties but flavour isn’t that big a factor.

Candi sugar does add flavour but not so much when you’re using white/clear candi. The darker candi adds fruit flavours - plum, prune, raisin and even darker candi layers caramel and coffee flavour on top.

 

[-Bezza-]

Invert sugar and candi sugar are not the same. Invert sugar has a few properties but flavour isn’t that big a factor.

Candi sugar does add flavour but not so much when you’re using white/clear candi. The darker candi adds fruit flavours - plum, prune, raisin and even darker candi layers caramel and coffee flavour on top.

I was going from this thread, obviously taking into account that I want a darker sugar for flavour:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/how-to-make-belgian-candi-syrup.12754/

First of all, a bit of Chemistry... PAY ATTENTION AT THE BACK THERE, MOLEY MAJOR!!!. Common-or-garden sugar is called Sucrose. It's extensively used in brewing, and comes in a number of physical forms. The only differences between table sugar, beet sugar, cane sugar, brewing sugar, brown sugar or even icing sugar is in the refining, the purity or the size of the crystals. They share the same chemical formula - C12 H22 O11.

Sucrose is a Disaccharide, which basically means 'two sweet bits'. Think of it as an old-fashioned circus weightlifter's dumbell. The two big round weights at the end are the two lumps of sweet stuff, and the bar across the middle is the chemical string joining them together. At one end is Glucose, and at the other end is Fructose. These are individually known as Monosaccharides (one sweet bit).

Before yeasties can get to work, they have to spend energy in splitting the Sucrose into Fructose and Glucose before they can get to work doing the thing we love them for - making alcohol. This splitting of Sucrose into its constituent monosaccharides is called 'inverting' the sugar. It just makes things a little easier (and quicker) for the yeasts to get to work. Candi Sugar is just that - invert sugar.

So all round, probably just best that I buy what I need as I have no idea what I'm talking about and can't be arsed standing around for 2 or 3 hours nursing some sugar!

 

[Jim Brewster]

Been inspired by this thread and just ordered a pack of M47 and put together a recipe and will be brewing it some time in the next week. I tried one with T-58 last year but was a bit disappointed with it.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I just read the first few posts and what I read doesn’t seem quite right. The description of sugar (sucrose) as a disaccharide is right and the dumbbell analogue is fine. It’s also right that yeast first splits sucrose into it’s two component parts. Inversion does the same thing so by inverting sugar you’ve helped the yeast with this splitting process.

Where things start to fall down is the implication that candi sugar and inverted sugar are the same and in the use of acid.

For candi sugar you need not acid but alkaline conditions and you need a source of protein.

Why this matters is that if you use acid to help with inversion (this is fine if you’re just inverting) and then try to create something dark and flavoursome by boiling it you’ll start to get a bit of colour and then struggle to get any more colour and any flavour until suddenly and quite quickly it becomes burnt sugar. The addition of acid inhibits the Maillard reactions that produce the flavour/colour.

 

[-Bezza-]

I just read the first few posts and what I read doesn’t seem quite right. The description of sugar (sucrose) as a disaccharide is right and the dumbbell analogue is fine. It’s also right that yeast first splits sucrose into it’s two component parts. Inversion does the same thing so by inverting sugar you’ve helped the yeast with this splitting process.

Where things start to fall down is the implication that candi sugar and inverted sugar are the same and in the use of acid.

For candi sugar you need not acid but alkaline conditions and you need a source of protein.

Why this matters is that if you use acid to help with inversion (this is fine if you’re just inverting) and then try to create something dark and flavoursome by boiling it you’ll start to get a bit of colour and then struggle to get any more colour and any flavour until suddenly and quite quickly it becomes burnt sugar. The addition of acid inhibits the Maillard reactions that produce the flavour/colour.

You mean I shouldn't believe what I read on the internet!? Probably just as well I didn't set out to make my own candi then.

I did have a little read of Palmer and now concerned at his comment that golden syrup can taste quite salty, so 1.2kg in the beer might be too much. I had a tinker and thought about reducing the molasses and using 500g demerara sugar but then noticed my FG was predicted to be 1.005 max which is probably a bit thin for what I'm aiming for.

Any thoughts on what I could do, perhaps a small amount of oat or lactose to get up to around 1.010? I'm thinking oats as I'm asking a lot of the yeast, so if it doesn't fully attenuate and I've added lactose, I've got a sweet beer at the end.

 

[-Bezza-]

Been inspired by this thread and just ordered a pack of M47 and put together a recipe and will be brewing it some time in the next week. I tried one with T-58 last year but was a bit disappointed with it.

I'm glad you have more get-up-and-go in you than I do. This was meant to be my Christmas 2021 beer! Reckon I'll brew this before the end of the month.

 

[chthon]

Been inspired by this thread and just ordered a pack of M47 and put together a recipe and will be brewing it some time in the next week. I tried one with T-58 last year but was a bit disappointed with it.

Take care, the M47 is a nice yeast, but is only usable up to 8% ABV.