Beer Judging

[TheMumbler]

It doesn't - that was about national stereotypes and sporting achievement and Britains post-colonial Buzz Aldrinesque malaise that "second comes right after first", though anyone would take you as a Liverpool fan though after in your tenacious desire to consider the link between 'focus on winning' and 'mediocrity' :whistle:

Sorry, I was confused by you posting it as a response to part of my paragraph on that issue.

I'm not a fan of fallacious arguments. Malaise? There you go again. Few things in life are as clearly measured as who can run 100m the fastest.

I doubt that any football team doesn't do its best to install a winning mentality in its players. Do you really think that England players don't want to win the world cup?

There are many measures of how good something is, things have a context. I suppose last season was a disaster for Norwich was it? They didn't even win the second division. Merely staying up next season will be a failure?

All of this has strayed far from the point so perhaps we should just take it up over a beer on Friday.

 

[lancsSteve]

All of this has strayed far from the point so perhaps we should just take it up over a beer on Friday.

Indeed : so... should we get back to some fo the more interesting themes of:

• Beer Judging - merits or different approaches.
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• Do we need to change the process in the UK?
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• Is the BJCP approach good?
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• How can/should/does one best go about becoming a beer judge? What are the merits and problems?
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• What resources and processes can best be used to get a new generation more interested, more skilled and more able?
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• How can competitions be made fun and interesting and social and useful rather than *just* competitive?
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• THBF Spring Thing 2 - how can make the compo bigger, better, brighter and more interesting?
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• That 'Bristol lot' and their BJCP ideas: are they a competitive bunch, traitors to the great British way of doing things and stooges of the American imperialist homebrew-country club competitive complex, or a zeitgeist vanguard of new ideas and ways of doing things (i.e. :clap: or :wha: or :nono: ?)
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• These sentences - are they needlessly over-complex and badly spelt*? Does anyone actually care?[/*:m:3c8h69n3]

* sorry - had to be done

 

[graysalchemy]

I used to sponsor a prize for a local art society ( I owned an art shop at the time). Art is personal preference but like brewing there are a lot of technical skill and principals which can be judged like brewing. However we sponsored a prize for a public vote for best painting in show. Quite often it wouldn't be a painting that had won in another category, but did show what appealed to the general public.

 

[Wez]

Re TST 2 .. I found this years quite bright and interesting. The feedback recieved so far suggests it was enjoyed by all.

Always happy to hear about anything you think we didnt do well or could improve on for next time Steve :thumb: (and all).

 

[alikocho]

• That 'Bristol lot' and their BJCP ideas: are they a competitive bunch, traitors to the great British way of doing things and stooges of the American imperialist homebrew-country club competitive complex, or a zeitgeist vanguard of new ideas and ways of doing things (i.e. :clap: or :wha: or :nono: ?)
  [/*:m:2k4wsw9s]

I can go some way to answering this one. We aren't a competitive bunch, but organising a competition seemed like a good idea as a way of promoting homebrewing and beer literacy. I don't see any of this as treacherous towards the British way of doing things, but it is a new approach. There is no stooge-esque aspect either, although it is worth pointing out that the US has a very vibrant homebrew scene with a very good national association, and an explosion of craft beer. But, as the recent CAMRA outburst against bloggers amply demonstrates, there are new ideas out there.

I think though, that people should be wary of passing judgment before the event. This is the first event of its kind in the UK, and until it happens nobody can make a judgement of what they think of it. Given the number of entries already in (not bottles yet), it seems that a large number of people are keen to find out.

 

[Swazi]

I think though, that people should be wary of passing judgment before the event.

I couldn't agree more. Fear of change keeps things in the past. I do like the way homebrew comps have been run in the past but improvement would be a good thing. Maybe the new approach will be a step towards better ones. I look forward to it and all the socializing it will involve.
I also want to win :twisted:

 

[Aleman]

I do think we need to move on from the NGWBJ approach, where really the 'beer' competition, has grown from that of the wine one . . . and has focused around the traditional English ale styles. . . . We need to see a wider acceptance of a wider range of beer styles if we are going to have a healthy competition/club scene (if we want that) . . . Does it need to be BJCP based? . . . As Ali has said there is an incredible vibrant homebrew scene in the US, and the AHA is a really active organisation promoting home brewing. . . . Could we have such an organisation here in the UK? . . . I think it's possible, the CBA has stagnated, and is looking at ways of re invigorating itself . . . competitions may be one way . . . either as pure competitions (requiring 2 bottles) or as 'festivals' (requiring 'n' bottles) . . . both approaches have merit . . . Either way we need more judges. If we accept that, perhaps, the BJCP approach has 'too many' categories, the NGWBJ has too few, the BJCP approach appears to produce more 'educated' judges with an exposure to a wider range of beer styles than the NGWBJ. . . . Personally if I was going to be a judge I would want to be recognised by both organisations . . . and indeed would have thought that any self respecting judge would aim to learn as much about beers and beer judging as possible.

 

[Swazi]

Absolutely spot on Aleman. :clap:

 

[Eradite]

+1 Aleman

 

[alikocho]

I not only think we could have an organization such as the AHA in the UK, I think we need one. I would be keen to be involved in producing one (and have already put my name forward for the CBA moving forward group). I think competitions and festivals will help.

As to becoming qualified in more than one organisation - absolutely. However, while anyone is permitted to take the BJCP exam, the NGWBJ exam has difficult prerequisites that stand as a barrier to taking it. There are, as far as I am aware many more BJCP judges (ok not in the UK) and they are educated in world beer styles (I recently met a NGWBJ judge who had no idea of what an Imperial IPA was). That the BJCP guidelines need some work is no secret, but one way to ensure that that happens is to be involved in the process. I don't know that there's much merit in trying to create a third system - the BJCP is large, exists in several countries and, importantly, is well recognized.

Again on qualifying, I am organizing a BJCP exam in Bristol in October 2012. If anyone is interested in taking it, they should contact me.

As for the BJCP having too many styles - I'm not sure they do. It's worth remembering that many of the styles are substyles of a major style (e.g. Dry Stout, Sweet Stout, Foreign Stout, American Stout and Russian Imperial Stout are all substyles of Stout). I think that some misunderstand that competitions do not tend to work on the basis of judging the pecking order in a major category, but the substyles are there in order for a beer to be judged on how it fits within its substyle. This, theoretically, allows you to judge related beers together with each other. In practice this means that are 28 categories, not 96 (although I can appreciate how people think that's what's going on). In case I haven't been overly clear, look at this - http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/4653/2010_Winners_List.pdf or this - http://www.homebrewalley.org/HA5winners.html

 

[lancsSteve]

I not only think we could have an organization such as the AHA in the UK, I think we need one. I would be keen to be involved in producing one (and have already put my name forward for the CBA moving forward group). I think competitions and festivals will help.

I think we could risk throwing a baby out with the bathwater if we seek to setup a parallel or alternative to CBA. In my view the CBA is in need of evolution rather than revolution, why throw away an existing infrastructure and experienced membership who can help a new generation learn rather than see all that's old as bad (they're nowhere near as in need of a shake up as CAMRA!). It seems there's a lot of false positivitiy about the idea of change here. Change is change - it's neither good nor bad. But the consequences can be hard to predict.

I'd love to see the CBA brought into the 21st century but not losing it's history or existing members and wealth of knowledge, if this includes seeking to take the best of the BJCP great but if we are reverse colonised by it that would be bad. Our traditions are important as well and I think efforts such as durden park are of incredible value - I'd love to see a "historical category" for example which would fall outside existing BJCP and NGWBJ competition rules but would do something distinct and create a new direction that encourages research and innovation by looking back to our traditions (you know the things having a history gives you ;-)) rather than always looking out to what the Yanks are doing...

The BJCP is heavily sponsored and has a lot of politics and money and business interests and bull$h1t with it and some epic epic to$$ers who are worshipped as heroes (Sam Calagione - amazing ideas but the guys like the Sly Stallone of the brewing world).

As to becoming qualified in more than one organisation - absolutely. However, while anyone is permitted to take the BJCP exam, the NGWBJ exam has difficult prerequisites that stand as a barrier to taking it.

FInding out what these are is a barrier and it does seem very hard gven the lack of competitions to enter in order to achieve this. however I understand that the BJCP can't be failed - you can just be ranked low so there are merits to a stringent system (though perhaps costs as well if you're going to be so old by the time you're judging that you;re taste buds are half dead!

There are, as far as I am aware many more BJCP judges (ok not in the UK) and they are educated in world beer styles (I recently met a NGWBJ judge who had no idea of what an Imperial IPA was).

Not knowing your American marketing terms isn't necessarily an indication of a bad judge (which is all appending the prefix 'imperial' was intended to do) and it's not exactly either a real term (historical IPAs were 'imperial' in strength) nor a historic one, imperial stout I would credit and not knowing that would perhaps show a black hole but imperial IPA is to me the 'cascadian' of the 90's and were known as 'doube IPAs before that'. I like the fact that in the UK we don't rebrand our beers every decade as the BJCP seems determined to do - or create nonsense terms like 'dark pale'. When I see a "harsh mild" category I will not be suprised.

Depth of knowledge in British styles is sorely lacking in the BJCP accounts which seem to be based a lot on hitting the stats not coming from a cask and the attempts to impose numbers and measurements on other styles range from problematic with belgian styles to downright ridiculous when the second-oldst-wessen and one-that-broguth-the-style-back is 'not to style' (Schneider weise is 'too dark').

More is not better Birmingham has more miles of canal than Venice...

That the BJCP guidelines need some work is no secret, but one way to ensure that that happens is to be involved in the process. I don't know that there's much merit in trying to create a third system - the BJCP is large, exists in several countries and, importantly, is well recognized.

We have an existing system whcih could be extended in the spirit of the BJCP. SImply adopting a system we know to be flawed seems a bit of a lack of imagination - as the "historical beers" category above would not work in these but could be a great place for some of the "other" beers.

Again on qualifying, I am organizing a BJCP exam in Bristol in October 2012. If anyone is interested in taking it, they should contact me.

Waiting to hear back on distance learning approaches for those not in Bristol (and am offering to help on them).

As for the BJCP having too many styles - I'm not sure they do. It's worth remembering that many of the styles are substyles of a major style (e.g. Dry Stout, Sweet Stout, Foreign Stout, American Stout and Russian Imperial Stout are all substyles of Stout). I think that some misunderstand that competitions do not tend to work on the basis of judging the pecking order in a major category, but the substyles are there in order for a beer to be judged on how it fits within its substyle. This, theoretically, allows you to judge related beers together with each other. In practice this means that are 28 categories, not 96 (although I can appreciate how people think that's what's going on). In case I haven't been overly clear, look at this - http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/4653/2010_Winners_List.pdf or this - http://www.homebrewalley.org/HA5winners.html

[/quote][/quote]

Useful additions and clarifications - thanks.

 

[alikocho]

I not only think we could have an organization such as the AHA in the UK, I think we need one. I would be keen to be involved in producing one (and have already put my name forward for the CBA moving forward group). I think competitions and festivals will help.

I think we could risk throwing a baby out with the bathwater if we seek to setup a parallel or alternative to CBA. In my view the CBA is in need of evolution rather than revolution, why throw away an existing infrastructure and experienced membership who can help a new generation learn rather than see all that's old as bad (they're nowhere near as in need of a shake up as CAMRA!). It seems there's a lot of false positivitiy about the idea of change here. Change is change - it's neither good nor bad. But the consequences can be hard to predict.

I agree that the CBA needs to evolve, and any change should be to build on what exists, rather than create a brand new organisation. As I mentioned before, I have already put myself forward as a part of the CBA 'way ahead' thinking group.

I like the idea of a Historical Beers section, but it would need some thought as to how you define a historical beer. A largely dead style, or a style that predates a certain point? Or the older incarnation f something we know today?

As to becoming qualified in more than one organisation - absolutely. However, while anyone is permitted to take the BJCP exam, the NGWBJ exam has difficult prerequisites that stand as a barrier to taking it.

I understand that the BJCP can't be failed - you can just be ranked low

The BJCP exam requires a passing score of 60, so it can be failed and is. What has happened is that if you took the exam, the rank of apprentice was bestowed. This was done to keep people interested in retaking the exam, but they are talking about changing this as a status.

There are, as far as I am aware many more BJCP judges (ok not in the UK) and they are educated in world beer styles (I recently met a NGWBJ judge who had no idea of what an Imperial IPA was).

Not knowing your American marketing terms isn't necessarily an indication of a bad judge

I didn't mean to suggest it was an indication of a bad judge. It was more a comment on awareness of where world beer styles are at now. While the names may be marketing, they nonetheless exist at the moment. Without an understanding of what a brewer was trying to achieve it's harder sometimes to give good and useful feedback[/quote]

Depth of knowledge in British styles is sorely lacking in the BJCP accounts which seem to be based a lot on hitting the stats not coming from a cask and the attempts to impose numbers and measurements on other styles range from problematic with belgian styles to downright ridiculous when the second-oldst-wessen and one-that-broguth-the-style-back is 'not to style' (Schneider weise is 'too dark').

Much of the British bits of the BJCP guidelines are based on a bottled exported product, yes. As to Schneider Weisse, it's there in the guidelines, but as an example of a Dunkelweizen...

Again on qualifying, I am organizing a BJCP exam in Bristol in October 2012. If anyone is interested in taking it, they should contact me.

Waiting to hear back on distance learning approaches for those not in Bristol (and am offering to help on them).

[/quote]

I'll be in touch over the next month or so with those interested in the distance learning for this. Bear with me a little, though, the course won't start until October and I currently am dealing with a new baby (and organizing a homebrew competition).

 

[Farmbrew]

I agree with Steve...we need evolution...the NGWBJ styles are hideously out of date.

As UK craftbrewers we should expand and modernise the NGWBJ rules - I'm going to step on some toes here :cry: but they really are a relic of the 70's when wine making and brewing were kissing cousins. I think we can safely say that UK craftbrewing (cos' that's what we do now) has evolved beyond recognition of those 1970's and 80's brewers. When I started making wine :whistle: in my teenage years I remember rolling up to a winemaking shop and noticing dodgely wrapped black malt and tins of EDME not to mention the stale hops (lambic anybody). Great if you want to make stout, mild or copper coloured bitter (remember that ). Even since I've been AG brewing I've seen more and more ingredients to make more and more world beer styles. So it is a time to modernise...long gone are pale ales - now they are hoppier golden ales, APA or witbier...hefeweizen, real IPAs

The BJCP is a very modern stepping stone to learn about beer judging. As has been commented on throughout this thread is that BJCP doesn't represent real beer styles "out in the wild" - some classic commercial beers of a particular style would not fit in the BJCP guidelines . Although not perfect (still) the Brewers Association 2011 Style Guidelines are current and add categories as more world beers are "discovered" by our american cousins. These are the categories the world beer cup are judged on...not sure why there is a distinction between amateur (BJCP) and professional (BA) rules...amateur brewers can brew better beers than a lot of professional outfits. amen to that... :party:

 

[snail59]

Sorry but I don't agree. There has to be room for both the so called MODERN approach to brewing and Beer styles and the older more TRADITIONAL brewing and Beer styles. Fine if you want to go with the more upto date modern beer styles then do so but don't force change onto another group just because they don't provide what you require. If people want to brew Traditional Real Ales and have them judged for what they are then let them have there choice (after all you are pushing for your choice which may not fit with other peoples ideas). I like to Brew (and more importantly drink) what I like to call Traditional English Ales. If an organisation is putting on an event and your product does not fit there criteria then don't enter it, simple as that. Don't stamp your feet and demand change just because it suits you to do so. As it has been pointed out there are two ways of judging beer fine just enter the competitions organised by the group that fits your brewing preference. If I owned a classic B.S.A motorcycle I wouldn't enter it into a Japanese bike show then complain when it didn't win. The NGWBJ are not out of date they just Judge in a more TRADITIONAL STYLE with a different set of requirements to the BJCP. It's like entering a Morris Minor into a classic car show and being told it is no good because there are no alloy wheels, skirts and spoilers on it. I am NOT a CRAFTBREWER I am a HOMEBREWER. Crafts are what people do in Barns on Farms to rip tourists off

 

[alikocho]

There is room for tradition and new styles. Look at the Kernel Brewery's beer lineup as an example. The BJCP doesn't deny these tradtions, although I take the point that there might be a tendency to lump traditional renditions of beers against "edgier" modern versions.

I am NOT a CRAFTBREWER I am a HOMEBREWER. Crafts are what people do in Barns on Farms to rip tourists off

I completely agree with this. Craft Brewing (and craft beer) means something completely different to homebrewing (and in the US is legally and extremely different term). Just look at how many very large breweries claim to be craft brewers, Anhauser Busch and Miller Coors (via subsidiaries) among them.

You will note that the upcoming competition in Bristol is a Homebrew competition, not a craft brewing competition.

 

[Farmbrew]

I am NOT a CRAFTBREWER I am a HOMEBREWER. Crafts are what people do in Barns on Farms to rip tourists off

I completely agree with this. Craft Brewing (and craft beer) means something completely different to homebrewing (and in the US is legally and extremely different term). Just look at how many very large breweries claim to be craft brewers, Anhauser Busch and Miller Coors (via subsidiaries) among them.

Just because some marketing guys take the term and use it for a market sector or a product doesn't make the way we make homebrew any less of a "craft". If anything - to them it is just a marketing word - they won't sell beer if they say "industrial". Some farm brewed beer is good...I could spend a few touristy weeks meandering :drunk: around farm breweries in Franconia or Southern Belgium.

Sorry but I don't agree. There has to be room for both the so called MODERN approach to brewing and Beer styles and the older more TRADITIONAL brewing and Beer styles. Fine if you want to go with the more upto date modern beer styles then do so but don't force change onto another group just because they don't provide what you require.

Oops :? that's not quite what I was getting at - I'd like evolution in the range of styles judged - not removal of styles or changing the critical parameters of traditional ones. The categories should reflect British & Irish Styles both modern & traditional. For now they just hold a snap shot of british beer drinking history from when they were drawn up.

 

[alikocho]

I am NOT a CRAFTBREWER I am a HOMEBREWER. Crafts are what people do in Barns on Farms to rip tourists off

I completely agree with this. Craft Brewing (and craft beer) means something completely different to homebrewing (and in the US is legally and extremely different term). Just look at how many very large breweries claim to be craft brewers, Anhauser Busch and Miller Coors (via subsidiaries) among them.

Just because some marketing guys take the term and use it for a market sector or a product doesn't make the way we make homebrew any less of a "craft". If anything - to them it is just a marketing word - they won't sell beer if they say "industrial". Some farm brewed beer is good...I could spend a few touristy weeks meandering :drunk: around farm breweries in Franconia or Southern Belgium.

I didn't mean to imply that homebrewing wasn't a craft (actually I thought I'd typed that I did believe that, but may have over-self edited). As to visiting farmhouse breweries in the low countries - done it and its great

 

[Farmbrew]

I didn't mean to imply that homebrewing wasn't a craft (actually I thought I'd typed that I did believe that, but may have over-self edited). As to visiting farmhouse breweries in the low countries - done it and its great

:

 

[Aleman]

Sorry but the phrase Homebrewer summons up the image of Albert Steptoe, brewing up something nasty in his bath that tastes and looks foul but gets you drunk . . . and unfortunately that is what too many people who don't know any better think of it.

Craftbrewer and proud

 

[alikocho]

Sorry but the phrase Homebrewer summons up the image of Albert Steptoe, brewing up something nasty in his bath that tastes and looks foul but gets you drunk . . . and unfortunately that is what too many people who don't know any better think of it.

I must admit, it took me a while before I understood what people meant when they uttered the phrase 'tastes like homebrew'. They never said this about my beers, and it was only when someone at a club meeting asked me what was wrong with their beer and someone else said 'tastes like a kit beer' that I twigged. I'd been presented with a glass of beer that reeked and tasted of pediococus and was seriously oxidised.

As to the names, I guess that my exposure to the US makes me shy away from using craft in the title. Most importantly, I am a brewer. The prefix doesn't change that.