AG Pilsner cool fermentaiton not really started!?

[timcunnell]

Hey guys
After a few fairly successful AG brews using BIAB with the awesome kits from the guys at HBC. Forr a change I thought I'd have a crack at a larger-type brew, and opted for the pilsner AG kit, which comes with Brewferm lager yeast.

The brewday went pretty well and I ended up with 22 litres at 1050, which was about on the money. So then it was just a case of pitching the yeast, is this is where I come unstuck! The recipe provided says to ferment at 10-degrees, but the Brewferm yeast packet says to ferment at 15-degrees!? So that's question number 1!

THEN the other advice on the yeast packet says to add the yeast to 100ml of warm water (30-degrees) then allow to cool before pitching. My wort at this point was still pretty warm in the fermenter (I'd cooled it quite a bit with the wort chiller but it was still sitting at around 30+ I'd estimate).
So what I did was add my fermenter to my brew fridge, and separately add the warm yeast solution to a sterilised container and pop that in the fridge too. I left both for a few hours to cool down. I'd set my fridge to 10-11 degrees.

A few hours later I checked on the wort and it was still not that cool. The yeast solution was cool though. At this point I must be honest and say it was maybe 11pm and bed was calling. So in went the yeast, and I went to bed!

So this was Sunday night, and checking on it this morning there was not much activity. In fairness there is a reasonable froth on the top of the wort, the lid is bulging and the bubbler indicates there is positive pressure. But usually my IPA recipes etc would be bubbling away like mad right about now.

So what I am wondering is: did I mess up the pitching by getting the tempt wrong. Am I fermenting too cold for the Brewferm lager yeast? Did I kill it off by pitching it cool into much warmer wort? Or is this just how lager/pilsner ferments (especially at low temp)?

Fortunately I did get two packets of yeast through with the kit, so I can always pitch another lot of yeast if people think that's worth a try?

Thanks for reading, and I really appreciate any advice!

 

[Leon103]

It sounds like it's working to me. It's lager yeast so should be working its magic from the bottom anyway.

 

[Simonh82]

The general advice is to pitch cool for lager yeast but by pitching warmer you won't have hurt the yeast but you might not get the super clean lager flavour.

You might get away with it though, as the first 6-12 hours are the lag phase when yeast are adapting to the wort. It's the following 24 hours or so when the yeast are multiplying exponentially that the off flavours can really develop.

Due to the cool fermentation temperature, lager need larger pitches of yeast. That might be why you received 2 packets. It might be worth adding the second packet to make sure you have enough yeast to complete fermentation without stalling.

 

[timcunnell]

Nice one guys thanks very much for the replies!
I checked it again this morning. Still good froth on top and there is now a faint alcohol smell in the fridge (love that smell!!) but still no bubble action to speak of.
I think I will go with the second packet of yeast in that case. So should I hydrate the yeast in warm-ish water then let it cool in the fridge, then pitch it in?

 

[windrider]

Sounds like you've underpitched. Lager requires a lot more yeast than a normal ale (usually double the amount of cells). I would put the other packet in as soon as you can.

 

[timcunnell]

Thanks Windrider. Sorry to ask the most basic of questions, but would you recommend hydrating the yeast first then and reducing to wort temp before pitching?

 

[JapanBrew]

First, you need to understand the goal. Lagering is causing the yeast to work slowly. This produces very low off flavors. But takes a long time.
Rehydrating your yeast wakes it up. Let it get excited in a small jar first so its colonies group close and have to be good neighbors. After they've got the idea on how to play with each other, pitch to the ideal temp. Low. This slows them down. But they still want to follow the rules. This makes them organized.
Just pitching them at random, they'll think they own the world and do what ever they like.
As you move through your brewing lifestyle you'll start to see where to slow down and focus on. Those little guys will make 60 to 80 percent of your beer flavor. You'll make wort as food rather than the beer.

 

[JapanBrew]

Thanks Windrider. Sorry to ask the most basic of questions, but would you recommend hydrating the yeast first then and reducing to wort temp before pitching?

There's no basic question. You're discovering and that's cool. Brew bud! Brew!! Your goal isn't a good beer. Your goal is making tasty beer that you want to drink. What YOU want to drink.

 

[windrider]

Thanks Windrider. Sorry to ask the most basic of questions, but would you recommend hydrating the yeast first then and reducing to wort temp before pitching?

I personally don't use dry yeasts anymore and grow starters instead. But it wouldn't hurt to rehydrate before pitching it. Some people do and some people don't. I would be inclined just to sprinkle it straight in :twisted:

You might want to look at doing a diacetyl rest when it get towards the end of the fermentation, espeically seeing you have temp contorl :thumb:

 

[Simonh82]

I would always rehydrate dried yeast. If you don't you risk killing half the cells, which for a lager can really matter.

When you sprinkle dried yeast into wort the first thing it does is rehydrate the cell from the water available in the wort. During this process the cell membrane which governs the transport of sugars into the cell can't effectively control the flow and the cell can be flooded with sugar, stressing or even killing it. If you rehydrate it in water, it doesn't have the same stress and once hydrated will be able to cope with the wort environment much better.

 

[timcunnell]

Hey guys - thanks so much to Simonh82, JapanBrew and Windrider! I really appreciate your advice!
So last night I hydrated the second packet of yeast in 100ml of boiled then cooled water. I cooled the hydrated yeast solution to the wort temp first then just chucked it in.
I must admit, I probably haven't looked into this lager business as much as I should have before starting this! Other than the cooler ferment temp I thought it's be pretty much like brewing an ale! But I guess not!!

So my other question is how long should I keep it in the fermenter for? My usual MO for ale is two weeks in fermenter before bottling or kegging. But from what I am reading it needs waaaay longer in primary? The term "lagering" - does that refer to the long primary fermentation phase?

Thanks again for all the advice!

 

[JapanBrew]

Hey guys - thanks so much to Simonh82, JapanBrew and Windrider! I really appreciate your advice!
So last night I hydrated the second packet of yeast in 100ml of boiled then cooled water. I cooled the hydrated yeast solution to the wort temp first then just chucked it in.
I must admit, I probably haven't looked into this lager business as much as I should have before starting this! Other than the cooler ferment temp I thought it's be pretty much like brewing an ale! But I guess not!!

So my other question is how long should I keep it in the fermenter for? My usual MO for ale is two weeks in fermenter before bottling or kegging. But from what I am reading it needs waaaay longer in primary? The term "lagering" - does that refer to the long primary fermentation phase?

Thanks again for all the advice!

Well, if you truly lager it at 3 to 4 degrees, you'd need a very long time. But most can't get that temp. I did mine at 14 degrees for 8 weeks. Others can chime in. But, the longer the better.

 

[timcunnell]

Well, if you truly lager it at 3 to 4 degrees, you'd need a very long time. But most can't get that temp. I did mine at 14 degrees for 8 weeks. Others can chime in. But, the longer the better.

Thanks mate - so we are talking several weeks in primary yeah? Do you then raise the temp to carb up when bottled/kegged? Or will it carbonate well at the lower temp too?

 

[Simonh82]

Have a look at the quick lager method on Brulosophy.com. It may not be the way the purists do it but it seems to get good results. It is also the way that the vast majority of the mass produced lager is made now (or at least some variation on it). There's no way AB-Inbev or the like would have their tanks tied up for three months when they can push it out the door in 3 weeks.

 

[timcunnell]

Wow thanks Simon this is a brilliant guide! I am absolutely going to follow this and see what transpires. I;m not sure my brew fridge will get down as cold as is recommended for the £ramp down" phase, but I will just set my ST controller to 0 and set the actual fridge control to max and see what happens! Presumably as cold as possible would be reasonably okay?
I had an OG of 1050 and used re-hydrated dry yeast with a slow start, as already discussed, and added some more yeast a coupld of days later. So I am thinking I will give it 9-10 days in primary at 12-degrees before commencing the ramp up to 18-20.
I'm excited to see what results I get with this!