Acidifying the Sparge (or not!)

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

My water here is as hard as nails (336 mg/L as HCO3) so I'm always adding lactic to the mash.
I work it out with Bru'n Water, which works fine.

But the tool also likes to nag me about acidifying the sparge "in order to avoid extracting tannins from the grain".
I get the idea, and I've always played along with doing this by adding AML (CRS) to the sparge water.

But (heresy!) I'm beginning to wonder whether this is actually necessary.

Has anyone who DIDN'T acidify their sparge (especially if they have hard water) had trouble with astringency in their beer?

 

[MashBag]

Hmm. I like your thinking.

I treat all my water first and then remove some.

Adjusting the water is for MASHING. by the time you sparge mash it's complete.

Question though... Why do you use lactic and AMS?

 

[Agentgonzo]

Has anyone who DIDN'T acidify their sparge (especially if they have hard water) had trouble with astringency in their beer?

I don't acidify the sparge and have similarly >300ppm hard water.

Never had astringency.

As far as I've read, you can (but it's not guaranteed) get astringency if you have too high ph and to hot sparge water (>70° IIRC).

I just keep the sparge water at 65ish

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Never had astringency [...] I just keep the sparge water at 65ish

Brilliant! really useful, thanks @AG

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

One of these days I'm going to have to try doing a small batch with NO water treatment, and see what happens...
The other day I completely forgot to add the traditional pinch of Camden to ward off the evil spirits of Chlorine, and guess what: no difference

 

[Agentgonzo]

One of these days I'm going to have to try doing a small batch with NO water treatment, and see what happens...
The other day I completely forgot to add the traditional pinch of Camden to ward off the evil spirits of Chlorine, and guess what: no difference

I brewed for 15 years before starting water treatment. After a small amount of non-rigorous and basic testing, I can say that the difference is minimal. Salt additions in a blind test were "just" noticeable in a side by side test. I do some basic water treatment because it's no hassle and precautionary.

Tbh I don't repeat brews much and don't test my beers side by side so it's hard to actually tell what difference it makes. I can honestly say after many many batches, brewing with/without water treatment doesn't make any one noticeably better/worse than the other

 

[Agentgonzo]

That said, I keep meaning to do a test brew with neutral (Tesco ashbeck) water to see if it's any different

 

[MashBag]

I made beer for many years without any treatment. I too am 300ish.

Treating with AMS & DWB has made it a bit brighter. But never had astrigency.

Never used chlorine...

 

[Agentgonzo]

Never used chlorine...

I think the idea is your want to get rid of the chlorine, not use it

 

[Sadfield]

For clarity, Brunwater is adding acid to lower the sparge pH (5.5), which different to adding acid to reduce the sparge water alkalinity. I've never seen any reference in any brewing book or text about targeting a specific mash pH, or done it in any brewery.

I don't have water as hard as that, I just treat my all my brewing liquor in one go. If we reduced the alkalinity with AMS then it will have very little affect on the mashes buffering capacity. Once mashed in, grain remains wet. When you sparge, you are replacing worty wetness in the grain with water. It doesn't matter if it ends up higher pH and astringent, it gets thrown out with the grain.

 

[MashBag]

I think the idea is your want to get rid of the chlorine, not use it

Bugger. Full marks well spotted

but that does work both ways. I don't use campden to remove chlorine but (and completely irrelevant really, but I started it) I don't use chlorine either as a cleaner.

 

[crescent city Mike]

Preventing astringency from the sparge is rather simple.
https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/astringency/

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Preventing astringency from the sparge is rather simple.
https://crescentcitybrewtalk.com/astringency/

Thanks Mike - interesting read
How hard is your water?

 

[crescent city Mike]

This is a water chemistry report from the local water works. The water comes from the Mississippi River and is treated. Of course they add chloramines so we don't die of dysentery.

Source Water	Calcium (ppm)	Magnesium (ppm)	Alkalinity as CaCO3	Sodium (ppm)	Chloride (ppm)	Sulfate (ppm)	Water pH
(ppm)	38	15	100	27	34	54	7.2

 

[grooves]

One of these days I'm going to have to try doing a small batch with NO water treatment, and see what happens...
The other day I completely forgot to add the traditional pinch of Camden to ward off the evil spirits of Chlorine, and guess what: no difference

Don't do this! We have the same water. The resulting beer will harsh and mineral tasting - unless it's a dark beer / stout then you'll get away with it.

I forgot to acidify once, and the beer was pretty bad. I have sparged with untreated water with little effect on flavour, but I tend to treat and heat full volume in the BM - then tap off everything over 25l before mashing in for a later warm(ish) sparge.

I haven't done a brew for ages - I need to clear out the brew shed and get one going!

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Don't do this! We have the same water. The resulting beer will harsh and mineral tasting - unless it's a dark beer / stout then you'll get away with it.

I forgot to acidify once, and the beer was pretty bad. I have sparged with untreated water with little effect on flavour, but I tend to treat and heat full volume in the BM - then tap off everything over 25l before mashing in for a later warm(ish) sparge.

I haven't done a brew for ages - I need to clear out the brew shed and get one going!

Thanks for the heads up!!

If you get a brew on now, you'll be glad for it when the Summer comes ;-)

 

[Agentgonzo]

Don't do this! We have the same water. The resulting beer will harsh and mineral tasting - unless it's a dark beer / stout then you'll get away with it.

Interesting. Have you brewed without water treatment many times? I brewed for 15 years without water treatment and never had harsh or mineral tasting beer and have similar water, including pale beers and bitters.

 

[foxy]

My water here is as hard as nails (336 mg/L as HCO3) so I'm always adding lactic to the mash.
I work it out with Bru'n Water, which works fine.

But the tool also likes to nag me about acidifying the sparge "in order to avoid extracting tannins from the grain".
I get the idea, and I've always played along with doing this by adding AML (CRS) to the sparge water.

But (heresy!) I'm beginning to wonder whether this is actually necessary.

Has anyone who DIDN'T acidify their sparge (especially if they have hard water) had trouble with astringency in their beer?

I don't sparge but there are times when I will have so many litres that I can't fit into the mash kettle as well as the grain. I always treat the water as one and then draw off the water not usually more than 5 litres. I then calculate the grain for the initial full volume including the 5 litres drawn off. After mashout just tip the remaining 5 litres into the wort as it heats up to boil.
There is conflicting recommendations about whether to add just acid to the sparge water or treat it the same as the mash water, just something you would have to have a read about and make your own mind up. But as you are using Bru'n Water just follow his calculator for acid addition to sparge water.

 

[Neil Whittaker]

I'm no expert but recently read the "Bru'n Water" page about water due to some great info @peebee, posted.

I expect being able to perceive some of the following effects are more noticeable in various larger styles.
Maybe this small snippet, at "Bru'n Water", is useful to this thread:
PH in mash / finished beer

I've been thinking of adjusting the sparge PH, to ensure the final finish (Pilsner) beer PH to be in the 5.2 range to aid crispness.

 

[MashBag]

I don't sparge but there are times when I will have so many litres that I can't fit into the mash kettle as well as the grain. I always treat the water as one and then draw off the water not usually more than 5 litres. I then calculate the grain for the initial full volume including the 5 litres drawn off. After mashout just tip the remaining 5 litres into the wort as it heats up to boil.
There is conflicting recommendations about whether to add just acid to the sparge water or treat it the same as the mash water, just something you would have to have a read about and make your own mind up. But as you are using Bru'n Water just follow his calculator for acid addition to sparge water.

That raises the point I first thought of, which is "don't sparge"