A question regarding a potentially bad turbo cider brew.

[Niall_]

TL;DR - Should I let a cider brew that smells, and possibly tastes slightly of vinegar to mature for a few weeks/months before passing judgement, or would it be a bad batch based on that alone?

To cut a long story short(er, haha), I think I botched my first brew and would like opinions before it goes down the drain/is turned to cider. I sterilised everything with 'vinclasse' sterilising powder before hand, I tried to be as thorough as I could but the equipment was new so I don't think not getting every part up to the 30 second contact time would have been too much of an issue, everything definitely got wet and it was sat for at least a minute and was swirled a few times around.

I started the brew by adding 23 litres of 100% pure apple juice, I didn't add campden tablets or otherwise pasteurise the aj. The next step I definitely made a mistake, I added my dry cider yeast directly to the brew and stirred it in, I knew I should have rehydrated the yeast beforehand or at the very least let it sit on top, but it must have skipped my mind. The lid + airlock went on the brew last Monday around 10pm, it got some bubbles on Tuesday and some time during Wednesday morning I noticed foam about 2-3 inches higher than the liquid. The airlock was bubbling nicely on Wednesday, and it died down late Thursday but I wasn't around the bucket much to see how much it was bubbling often. The pressure of the bucket caused the lid to expand a little before air would exit the airlock, I had made a note of pressing the lid down a little to manually relieve some of the pressure although I was very careful not to let any air back into the bucket. The lid remained pressurised well until Saturday or Sunday night, and after pressing the lid down Sunday night it hasn't pressurised up to the point I could notice on Monday, and the same again following into Tuesday afternoon(today).

Perhaps at this point why I should explain why I think it's gone bad: the smell. The first few days into the brew it smelled of standard apple juice, and then got progressively yeast-like smelling. Around Thursday or Friday it smelled a smell that's hard to explain, I could still smell apple juice along with a strong smell of yeast, but it also smelled of cider, with an occasional strong whiff of alcohol (or just carbon dioxide I guess) and very faintly of rotten eggs/sulphur, fairly standard up to this point I think. The smell hasn't improved much since then, but I started to get a faint whiff of vinegar at some point, around Sunday I think. I can't say that it definitely smells of vinegar, it could just have been the carbon dioxide and sulphur mixed with a little paranoia. Anyway, fast forward to today(Tuesday) and the smell of vinegar has really got me worried, so I opened it up and with a sterilised glass got a little sample to taste. The smell of the sample was mostly yeast and cider after swirling and never strongly of vinegar, and it didn't taste strongly of vinegar. But I can't if the taste is specifically vinegar, or if it's just because I've never had cider this 'young' before, it was definitely dry and not sweet but it tasted slightly sharp or acidic.

I've read on these forums and other that if it smells of vinegar but doesn't taste of vinegar then the brew is fine (even if it smells awful!), but I've also read that if the brew tastes of vinegar then it isn't going to improve with time. My concern is that because I think it tastes of vinegar that it generally isn't going to dissipate and return to a more typical cider taste and I'll end up with 23 litres of vinegar. However I recognise that I'm inexperienced and the taste may be typical for a cider brew this young, I've read that cider yeast specifically may account for the sulphur smell, and I've read that not properly hydrating the yeast (coupled with a lack of yeast nutrient) may affect the taste, and I also know I forgot to add tannin etc.

I think I'm just being paranoid but any opinions on the matter will be welcome, I think I may have to let the cider sit for a few weeks/months anyway even if it is just because the taste is slightly unpleasant, vinegar ignored. If it turns out that I'm dealing with a vinegar situation I wouldn't mind having the opportunity to sort out a proper cider brew in the meantime, as opposed to waiting a few weeks for what I have now to mature a little.

 

[graysalchemy]

Relax don't worry.

If it doesn't taste of vinegar it isn't vinegar. You often get a whiff of vinegar with fermenting cider along with yeast and bad eggs.

I would leave it well alone until it has stopped fermenting and then leave it some more, a month or so before bottling.

You said you didn't add any tannin and i presume no malic acid either. :hmm: :hmm: This to me will make for a rather insipid cider which may disappoint you. I would add 1 tsp each of malic acid and tannin powder per gallon. just mix them together with a little sugar to form a paste then add this to the cider and stir with a sterilised spoon.

The reason why I say to add malic and tannin is that carton apple juice is made from dessert apples and cider is made from cider apples which are considerably higher in malic and tannin.

Hope that has layed to rest your fears. :thumb: :thumb:

 

[oldbloke]

Shop bought AJ is pasteurised anyway, except for the fancy stuff in the chillers.
Not rehydrating the yeast would only slow things down, not mess it up, I use Young's cider yeast and it always goes in dry, never a problem

I'd say just keep it going to whatever plan you had, there's every chance there's nothing wrong with it (except you didn't mention tannin, or nutrient, or extra malic acid, or other juice to fill out the flavour). I've heard it said once or twice that a good wiff of CO2 up the schnozz can give a false impression of vinegariness.
Whatever, I wouldn't give up on it yet - wait to be sure it's bad before dumping it

 

[NickW]

Relax don't worry.

If it doesn't taste of vinegar it isn't vinegar. You often get a whiff of vinegar with fermenting cider along with yeast and bad eggs.

I would leave it well alone until it has stopped fermenting and then leave it some more, a month or so before bottling.

You said you didn't add any tannin and i presume no malic acid either. :hmm: :hmm: This to me will make for a rather insipid cider which may disappoint you. I would add 1 tsp each of malic acid and tannin powder per gallon. just mix them together with a little sugar to form a paste then add this to the cider and stir with a sterilised spoon.

The reason why I say to add malic and tannin is that carton apple juice is made from dessert apples and cider is made from cider apples which are considerably higher in malic and tannin.

Hope that has layed to rest your fears. :thumb: :thumb:

I've done TC a few times now and it's turned out brilliantly. Never used anything extra apart from sugar. I used the basics apple juice.

I do stop it at about 1018 though.

 

[Cheshire muzz]

I've done a couple of TCs and cider from apples and both smell a bit off in the early days of fermentation. It's after a month or so they seems to smell/taste like decent cider. I've found leaving it around 6 months makes it a cracking drink (from apples or from AJ)

 

[Niall_]

Thanks for the replies, I knew I was looking too much into failed brews for my own good!

I've read from a few people that tannin and malic(malolactic?) acid could be added post-fermentation without a problem so I decided last minute not to chuck some strong tea in, which would give me the chance to buy proper tannin along with the malic acid which I didn't have. For some reason or another I completely forgot about yeast nutrient, but I'll keep it in mind for future brews.

I was never expecting the outcome of the brew to be all that good and I had plans to drink it before I could mature it properly so I'm not too concerned about the taste, just whether or not would be drinkable in the first place. It's more of a prep brew until my apple tree produces sizeable apples this year, and after that I'll dedicate some time to properly mature a turbo cider brew, I also plan to brew a whole bunch of other stuff including bear, wine, and mead etc so I think a little bit of experience with cider will come in handy for that I hope!

 

[oldbloke]

I was never expecting the outcome of the brew to be all that good and I had plans to drink it before I could mature it properly so I'm not too concerned about the taste, just whether or not would be drinkable in the first place.

Oh, it'll be drinkable all right, just not as good as it could be. And with 23l of it some of it ought to make it to a more respectable age - you'll be able to see how the taste develops.

 

[Niall_]

I may actually keep 10 or so litres back as an experiment to see how the taste develops, that seems like a really fun idea. I just don't have the space currently to keep a full 23 litres packed away for a few weeks/months to let it mature, so some of it will have to be drunk in the meantime!

 

[Cheshire muzz]

remember you can always keep some of it to top up future brews when you rack your DJs.