60 min vs 90 min boils

[foxy]

Steinecker-Krones offers the Merlin boiler which typically boils the wort in 35-40 minutes. However, this is highly optimized equipment (albeit already superseeded) and not at all comparable to what we have.

It appears that the motivation is to boil just right -- which is the diffcult bit.

Earlier on I posted a table of (professional) brewing systems and their boil times. (Source: Back, Narziß)

Not sure I am up to date with the latest, but it appears that energy rationalisation has been an ongoing concern ever since. The impresssive Equitherm system was launched as far back as in 2011....

I don't see thinking about better boiling and the parameters affecting the results as controversial - even when people's approaches vary or disagree. As home brewer one has the freedom to alter parameters quite easily and freely within ones realm of possibilities. It is always intersting to hear about other peoples' experiences. There is a degree of experimentation and discovery that one should always be open to.

It's one of our strengths.

Yes the Merlin is getting old in the tooth I don't know if the have been any improvements on the system. But I believe that it has been superseded. I don't know how old this article is by Charlie Bamforth but he does mention a few commercial systems here.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/RZV7tB05MV/

 

[Beerwegoagain]

I must say as a newbie about to embark on the home-brewing journey into the land of partial and all grain instead of work kits thus is all a little fuzzy for my little brain. With sorting energy costs less boiling is less £ but certainly not at the expense of quality. Should I got with recipe instructions to start or chance my hand with 30 mins. I have a partial mash London Pride clone from Brewuk to do? Any thoughts appreciated as I said. It's my first. Thanks.

 

[Beerwegoagain]

Wort kits not work kits! On the bus to work so bit jiggly here but still considering beer

 

[Polcho]

Well I’m only in my second year in brewing beer.
I have a small but growing collection of books, but at present, I’m sticking to the full length boil. I don’t have any experience to share to explain that, just that at this stage in the hobby, I’m not about to save a couple of quid on electric or safe half an hour just to see I can get away with it.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Should I got with recipe instructions to start or chance my hand with 30 mins.

Ultimately, the choice is yours. But the safe choice is to follow the instructions. As you get more experience and more familiar with the process, it's good to experiment with different recipes and processes to understand what works best for you and how different factors affect (or don't affect) the finished beer.

 

[Beerwegoagain]

Thanks guys, I was thinking to go with what the instructions said and fiddle later for now so I can't go wrong with that. (Wanna bet!)

 

[Sadfield]

Brewing is just another form of food preparation. One can choose to follow a recipe or not. Over cook something or under cook it, with the associated consequences attached.

 

[Weizenberg]

Thanks guys, I was thinking to go with what the instructions said and fiddle later for now so I can't go wrong with that. (Wanna bet!)

Keeping it simple is very good advice indeed. I'd establish a foundation first before embarking on optimisations.

 

[Weizenberg]

Yes the Merlin is getting old in the tooth I don't know if the have been any improvements on the system. But I believe that it has been superseded. I don't know how old this article is by Charlie Bamforth but he does mention a few commercial systems here.
https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/RZV7tB05MV/

Cheers for the article.

I wonder what we can do to keep the temperature to steam differential low.... or how to build a stripping column (could do with that to degas the liquor as well)....

 

[buddsy]

Im with David on this one. 30mins




buddsy

 

[jake122]

I boil for 60 minutes but would be interested in trying 30 minutes.

What effect does a shorter boil have on original gravity? Is this something that needs to be considered?

 

[Clarence]

I aim for a 90 minute boil, which often becomes a 60 minute plus the time for the late hop additions. (lazy arithmetic on my part). I can't imagine ever wanting to go below 75 minutes. It's worth calculating the difference in energy costs. A 2 Kw element burning for half an hour costs nearly £1 at today's rates. Another option is to boil short and liquor back, saving energy on bringing the body of liquid up to boiling point, and then boiling for the full time. I'd liquor back with something like Tesco's Ashbeck water at £1.30 for 5 litres and then there's the cost of a few extra hops because of the reduced utilisation. It's swings and roundabouts, but with a 20 to 25 litre batch size, the savings are not worth the risk of drop in quality in my opinion.
Dave Heath is a nightmare in my opinion. His stuff on hops does apply to modern beers, but these very late or post boil additions are for a styes other than some of the old-school beers we like to brew, which he completely dismisses. He doesn't consider that some of us like to use heritage malts or continental malts which may not have been malted as he suggests. He doesn't talk abut maillard reaction or protein and tannin interactions and precipitation. Let him brew his own way, but his drivel that "long-boilers" are not keeping up with the times and, by implication, best practice is, frankly, offensive.

 

[Stu's Brews]

What effect does a shorter boil have on original gravity? Is this something that needs to be considered?

With a shorter boil you would boil off a smaller volume of wort, so if you started with the same initial volume and pre-boil gravity then you'd end up with a lower original gravity than you would with a longer boil.

 

[buddsy]

With a shorter boil you would boil off a smaller volume of wort,

In brewfather if you do as he suggest and reduce the boil time to 30 the boil off rate calculated is less to reflect this.

buddsy

 

[buddsy]

He doesn't talk abut maillard reaction or protein and tannin interactions and precipitation.

So the Maillard reaction is the process where steak, bread, cookies and cakes brown? Taking place approx. from 140 deg C to 165 deg C? Can you get your boil to reach temps over 100 deg C?

When I brew I think most of my colour is formed in the mash. Do you see increased colour development in a longer boil?

Im just wondering what it is you are getting from a longer boil when you talk about quality?

buddsy

 

[Agentgonzo]

So the Maillard reaction is the process where steak, bread, cookies and cakes brown? Taking place approx. from 140 deg C to 165 deg C?

Correct

Can you get your boil to reach temps over 100 deg C?

No. However, the temperature of the heating element in your kettle can reach these temperatures. At this point (I'm not certain about the science here, but this is what I think is happening) individual molecules of sugar/protein in your beer that come into contact with the element can undergo the maillard reaction. Some stick to the element (that brown buildup on your element at the end of the boil) but some don't and continue to be in solution in the wort.

Do you see increased colour development in a longer boil?

Yes, you can. Not by a huge amount unless you boil long and hard.

 

[Cwrw666]

So the Maillard reaction is the process where steak, bread, cookies and cakes brown? Taking place approx. from 140 deg C to 165 deg C? Can you get your boil to reach temps over 100 deg C?

When I brew I think most of my colour is formed in the mash. Do you see increased colour development in a longer boil?

Im just wondering what it is you are getting from a longer boil when you talk about quality?

buddsy

Although the wort doesn't get above boiling point, the point of contact between the wort and the heating element does which is where the maillard reaction occurs. And yes you do get darkening of the wort as the boil progresses.
I did try a 30 minute boil on one of my brews a while back. Tasted ok but head retention was noticeably poor. So I've gone back to my usual practice - one hour boil plus 15 minute hop addition.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Although the wort doesn't get above boiling point, the point of contact between the wort and the heating element does which is where the maillard reaction occurs. And yes you do get darkening of the wort as the boil progresses.
I did try a 30 minute boil on one of my brews a while back. Tasted ok but head retention was noticeably poor. So I've gone back to my usual practice - one hour boil plus 15 minute hop addition.

I think we were both writing the same thing at the same time!

It would be interesting to do a side by side comparison. Brulosophy has done plenty, by they focus on taste rather than appearance and head retention.

 

[Sadfield]

I love the steak example. Where they completely ignore the fact you get browning on the outside, yet the centre barely reaches more than 65°c.

 

[chthon]

So the Maillard reaction is the process where steak, bread, cookies and cakes brown? Taking place approx. from 140 deg C to 165 deg C? Can you get your boil to reach temps over 100 deg C?

When I brew I think most of my colour is formed in the mash. Do you see increased colour development in a longer boil?

Im just wondering what it is you are getting from a longer boil when you talk about quality?

buddsy

Actually, Maillard reactions take place at any temperature, but they go fastest at these temperatures.

However, there is another inhibition of Maillard reactions in boiling wort: an acidic environment also slows Maillard reactions down.

I found this a very informative answer.