60 min vs 90 min boils

[hoppyscotty]

So nobody really had an answer for my question, so I've decided I will try a 30 minute boil on my Floor Malted Pilsner, and post back the results here when the beer is complete.

If it's full of DMS I'll try again with a longer boil.

You'll be OK, I've done a few 30 minute boils of well known recipes now and they have all been successful with a high degree of consistency from previous batches and all I did was to adjust hops to achieve same IBU's and BU/GU ratio.

I think the clever stuff is all in the modern and highly sophisticated malting process so if you're using any specialty malts that are not malted in the same way as modern malts are then you might need to consider something different or they might not be suitable for shorter boils.

At a 'meet the brewer' at my local homebrew club last year I did get the opportunity to quiz a chap who'd had a lifetime career as head brewer/director of brewing for many of the big global and international breweries over his career including Bass (as it was when he worked there), Asahi, Guiness and others so had done all the professional qualifications and taught at universities too. He'd never home-brewed in his life, so had a very different experience to the other brewers we'd had in who had all come from homebrew and into the micro brewery level who are alot more 'gut feel' brewers, but with him it was 100% about the science. He completely had a handle on all the exact science that is going on at every stage including packaging and storage. There is nothing left to chance at that level and it is all backed up by science.

Though I didn't go too deep into the boil process, he did say that they boiled as long as they needed to suggesting that there is alot going on in the boil and there are many things they test for to determine what the correct boil time for a particular beer is and its not just as simple as ensuring you hit the correct IBU's, so there are no arbitrary 60min or 90 min schedules. It's boiled till it's ready and if that is 43 minutes and 23 seconds then that is what it is. Not 43 minutes and 22 seconds or 43 minutes and 24 seconds...it will be down to the second they are that precise. But I suspect at the homebrew level with modern malts 30 mins is sufficient. I certainly have not been able to detect a difference with back to back batches of the same 60 min boil version of the recipe.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I'm pleased to report that after the 30 minute boil yesterday, the wort tastes fine

I still step-mashed for 90 mins with the Floor-Malted stuff though and came out 2 points short of OG, so I'm glad I did or I might have been even more under.

 

[The Baron]

I would not shorten the boil on what is classed as the old style speciality malts. I have recently been doing 30 mins on standard modern malts when I am just whirlpooling but remain at 45 mins for more traditional beers - Ales Bitters etc

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I actually forgot about this, but a year ago I asked Weyermann direct on YouTube if their malts need to be step-mashed, and this is the reply I got.

Can't speak for any other brand, but Weyermann malts are as they put it 'nicely modified'. I guess my nice tasting wort confirms the 30 min boil is ok for the particular malt I used.

I still step-mashed though but it worked out ok.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I've heard of "fully modified" and "under modified" before, but never "nicely modified" . Maybe it's in between and "nicely modified" malts need a 45 minute boil?

 

[The Baron]

I am with you Tess but prefer to do slightly longer when doing the Ales etc(45 Mins) and unknown or unmodified I would do 60 mins boils but is rare for me to use older style malts. I have not found in IPA brews any difference when doing 30 mins but then it may be masked by the large amount of hop.
Each to their own as it vastly depends on style

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I've heard of "fully modified" and "under modified" before, but never "nicely modified" . Maybe it's in between and "nicely modified" malts need a 45 minute boil?

They're quite vague aren't they?

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

I am with you Tess but prefer to do slightly longer when doing the Ales etc(45 Mins) and unknown or unmodified I would do 60 mins boils but is rare for me to use older style malts. I have not found in IPA brews any difference when doing 30 mins but then it may be masked by the large amount of hop.
Each to their own as it vastly depends on style

Down to personal preference isn't it? I love 30 min boils as I swear I get more flavour out of the beer, so I do one nearly all of the time now.

 

[Sadfield]

More flavour could be DMS. An off-flavour is only an off-flavour when it is present at an unwanted level, until then it's just a flavour. There's plenty of commercial beers where the dms level is carefully controlled to meet the desired flavour profile. This is often done, post boil in the whirlpool. This is largely where brulosophy falls down, as the tasters likely come from a position of drinking US macro lager, which is full of DMS, so the sampled beers likely taste familiar, and beery.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

More flavour could be DMS. An off-flavour is only an off-flavour when it is present at an unwanted level, until then it's just a flavour. There's plenty of commercial beers where the dms level is carefully controlled to meet the desired flavour profile. This is often done, post boil in the whirlpool.

I guess I will find out when I send it in to a competition for professional judging. At the moment I'm happy with it though

I'm hoping it turns out ok so I can send it to a few forum members

 

[Davegase]

I've heard of "fully modified" and "under modified" before, but never "nicely modified" . Maybe it's in between and "nicely modified" malts need a 45 minute boil?

Bearing in mind English wouldn't be their first language !! nicely modified and well modified could well mean the same thing

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Very true Dave - didn't think of that!

 

[Sadfield]

I guess I will find out when I send it in to a competition for professional judging. At the moment I'm happy with it though

I'm hoping it turns out ok so I can send it to a few forum members

That's great. To reiterate dms in beer isn't a fault, it's often part of the flavour profile. Some may be better than none at all. A bit like salt in food, only too much is an issue. It may be the reason you're beer tastes fuller, it most likely score better with judges as a result, or go without comment.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

That's great. To reiterate dms in beer isn't a fault, it's often part of the flavour profile. Some may be better than none at all. A bit like salt in food, only too much is an issue. It may be the reason you're beer tastes fuller, it most likely score better with judges as a result, or go without comment.

Flavour is the most important aspect for me personally.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Flavour is the most important aspect for me personally.

I'd be amazed by anyone for whom flavour isn't the most important aspect.

 

[Tess Tickle's Brewery]

Me too but I bet there's some.

 

[hoppyscotty]

Depends where you want the flavour to come from. If you're into your NEIPA's then its all about the hops with little or no malt flavour coming though other than a base for the hops. Personally I prefer more of a balance as I like to taste the malt too, but I'm defiantly more of a hop head.

 

[marshbrewer]

I'm confused. Surely how well a malt is modified is of interest only at the mashing stage as regards conversion?

 

[Sadfield]

Here's a cat amongst the pigeons.

'Indexes of malt modification revealed barleys that produced low levels of SMM under a given set of malting conditions were inferior in terms of modification.'

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1094/ASBCJ-45-0053?journalCode=ujbc20

 

[hoppyscotty]

I'm confused. Surely how well a malt is modified is of interest only at the mashing stage as regards conversion?

It’s about the precursors to the various compounds that can cause off flavours unless driven off during the boil and modern malting process and malt varieties results in less of these precursors in the wort so less boiling needed. Or something along those lines.