Brewzilla Gen 4 advice and experiences

First question do you brew on a Gen 4 or are you reading opinions of other brewers?
Re other AIO's not having loads of complaints you are far off the mark, the Grainfather has had loads of issues in the past Silicon seals which were added because of the bottom plate not fitting correctly causing grain getting through and blocking the pump, the controller needing updates that did not always work and in fact made the other brewing matters worse.
Grainfather has ironed out those issues now and the unit performs well but it took a long to time to get there. Other AIO's suffered the same too in the first couple of years and some of it was that the manufacturers needed to adapt the systems but also the brewers needed to adapt their recipes and style too from the previous methods used.
What I am trying to say is it will take time for people to get used to the differences of any new system and you can read as much info as you want and some of it is good and helpful but some of it is lack of brewing experience and perseverance.
If you have bought one generally most people will make it work for them by adapting and understanding any quirks the machine may have.
If you read more recent owners comments you will find more and more giving better reports as they learn how to deal with the machines differences to how they have brewed before and adapted.
Do not take this as a personal attack in any way but I can only report how I find the machine and as I have said I did have some not so good brews to start with but after that no more issues than you would expect and most of them were crush issues or not using oat husks on certain recipes etc
The one big benefit of the system is it gives a better mash temperature than most systems when used with the Rapt thermometer and the brewers that complain about difference in bottom sensor and the rapt sensor temp is to be expected as with nearly all the AIO systems they are located in the wrong place near the element as you had in the previous Brewzilla model

Mr & Mrs Smith said:

You are missing the point. I agree every brewer has to adapt to the unit they purchase, but there aren't pages on multiple forums about the Grainfather, Klarstein and Brew Monk, etc. complaining about the units or having to use a bag to get them to work to some sort of satisfaction.
I never said that you said they were clueless Muppets, I said that. I was making the point that it is the Brewzilla Gen 4 which has far more than its fair share of disgruntled users compared to other units on the market, hence the Muppets comment.
If you read all the posts from those not happy with the G4 you will see that many are experienced brewers coming from one of the earlier Brewzilla's.

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Disgruntled brewers who do not know what they are doing. As to Grainfather complaints?... dont be daft when you have paid the going rate you do not want to make yourself look like a chump!
I have a Grainfather and it is well made and works well. I have a Bz and for the price it is well made and has some very good features that do not come with the GF. People complaining think that the AIO is going to do it for you and that is nonesense . I have heard people" say my system has perfect temperature top to bottom" ... another peice of total rubbish the temperature from top to bottom is not down to the heating alone its down to flow rate, which in turn is down to grain crush. For a system to have the same temp top and bottom the flow of the wort through the grain bed would need to be instantaneous... which it is not. Thermodynamics is simple really hotter to colder and heat can only be transferred at a set rate and as we know it won't stop transferring just because the temp sensor says the set temperature has been reached it will continue until equilibrium hence over shoots.

The Baron said:

They are not a machine that you just plug in and brews wort for you but some people think that you can add grain and it does the rest.

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So are you saying a braumeister is different then? Cos it will do just that.

It also comes with a manual, that tells you how to use it.

The Baron said:

Grainfather has ironed out those issues now and the unit performs well but it took a long to time to get there.

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Surely "ironed out" or "latest version", should be things for QA not the end user?

I was a test user of the Grainfather back in the day and I gave them feedback on areas for improvement.

I think if you stripped the BZ back so that you lost :-

The second temperature probe
Digitally controlled pump
Digitally controlled heating element power
PID controlled heating incorporating the second probe
Programmability for automated temperature control and timing
Remote monitoring, alerting and control

So you were left with machine with a control panel for heating and pump on/off and that’s it then there would probably have been no noise on the forums. And it’s perfectly possible to use it this way (and many do).

But if you want to use it beyond that, have a second probe for tight control of mash temperature etc. then you really need to understand what you are doing and I agree with @MashBag here that there should be far better documentation and how-to guides.

The Baron said:

First question do you brew on a Gen 4 or are you reading opinions of other brewers?
Re other AIO's not having loads of complaints you are far off the mark, the Grainfather has had loads of issues in the past Silicon seals which were added because of the bottom plate not fitting correctly causing grain getting through and blocking the pump, the controller needing updates that did not always work and in fact made the other brewing matters worse.
Grainfather has ironed out those issues now and the unit performs well but it took a long to time to get there. Other AIO's suffered the same too in the first couple of years and some of it was that the manufacturers needed to adapt the systems but also the brewers needed to adapt their recipes and style too from the previous methods used.
What I am trying to say is it will take time for people to get used to the differences of any new system and you can read as much info as you want and some of it is good and helpful but some of it is lack of brewing experience and perseverance.
If you have bought one generally most people will make it work for them by adapting and understanding any quirks the machine may have.
If you read more recent owners comments you will find more and more giving better reports as they learn how to deal with the machines differences to how they have brewed before and adapted.
Do not take this as a personal attack in any way but I can only report how I find the machine and as I have said I did have some not so good brews to start with but after that no more issues than you would expect and most of them were crush issues or not using oat husks on certain recipes etc
The one big benefit of the system is it gives a better mash temperature than most systems when used with the Rapt thermometer and the brewers that complain about difference in bottom sensor and the rapt sensor temp is to be expected as with nearly all the AIO systems they are located in the wrong place near the element as you had in the previous Brewzilla model

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I brewed on a BZ 3-1-1
We are talking about the present day, so problems have been ironed out on other AIO's
It would help if you didn't have to adapt the unit, you, reading past posts have had to higher the grain basket, I don't understand why they made the basket longer in the G4, if it isn't broke don't try and fix it. If they wanted to have a unit that could take more grain then change the configuration to a wider unit. There is good reason mash/lauter tuns are made to a specific ratio and that is flow through the grain bed.
No, I disagree entirely about the probe, the probe is located close to the HS for good reason, it is there so the temperature control unit can regulate the temperature of the liquor going through the pump.

jambop said:

Disgruntled brewers who do not know what they are doing. As to Grainfather complaints?... dont be daft when you have paid the going rate you do not want to make yourself look like a chump!
I have a Grainfather and it is well made and works well. I have a Bz and for the price it is well made and has some very good features that do not come with the GF. People complaining think that the AIO is going to do it for you and that is nonesense . I have heard people" say my system has perfect temperature top to bottom" ... another peice of total rubbish the temperature from top to bottom is not down to the heating alone its down to flow rate, which in turn is down to grain crush. For a system to have the same temp top and bottom the flow of the wort through the grain bed would need to be instantaneous... which it is not. Thermodynamics is simple really hotter to colder and heat can only be transferred at a set rate and as we know it won't stop transferring just because the temp sensor says the set temperature has been reached it will continue until equilibrium hence over shoots.

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I don't understand why you are mentioning Grainfather complaints and chumps
The Grainfather is the one I am most interested in, the G4 40 litre but until I get a designated brewing space and a hoist I am going for the 45 litre Hop Cat on special at the moment £399.00 reason being there is more room with the larger dia 400 cm the Brewzilla G4 35 litre only 29.5 cm. Also I have done three or four brews on this model which I borrowed and enjoyed brewing with a full capacity of liquor.
I know the AIO's are not going to do everything for me apart from the Braumeister which is just a matter of dough in and walk away, that will keep a constant temperature throughout the mash length thanks to German know-how. The BM is 40 cm diameter and pump rests which keep the wort at a constant temperature. I had this one top of my list but I like to keep busy during the mash, fine tuning keeping a vigilant eye on the temperature both top and bottom.
Yes it is possible to keep a temperature constant throughout the mash tun especially when brewing with the full capacity of liquor, good recirculation and initial stirring. Thermal fluid dynamics is simple, as that is part of my forte for my position of employment but the reactors we are discussing here are bioreactors not nuclear, Thermal fluid dynamics is a different ball game when another component is added to the mix, the grain. But in saying that while water is a poor conductor of heat it has an excellent high heat capacity which is beneficial to us brewers plus we have the insulating property of the grain. So with good insulation around a larger diameter mash/lauter tun and good flow through the grain bed a good temperature throughout can be maintained.
I have no problems with those who have the BZ G4 it just doesn't fit in with what I am after.
Just as an aside the ratio of Height - Diameter for small breweries is 0.6-1

That makes a lot of sense. Does the pump up from the bottom feature of braumeister make a difference too in terms of the fluid dynamics?

I totally disagree the temperature probe is located very close to the heat source so it gives a completely false mash temperature hence the probe placed in the mash to get a more accurate temperature. The mash has stratification due to heat differential as it flows through the mash hence the grain crush is critical for speedier flow through as it is with any AIO apart from the Braumeister as pointed out by Mashbag as it is a bottom flow up the grainbed.
So a measure of temp in the middle will give a average temp of the mash.
Yes it would help if you did not have to adapt any model but unfortunately that is how version 2's and 3's are created by users finding out quirks missed in developements.
I do not know of a industry where this does not happen sometimes they are as simple as a recall others become version 2's etc.
I lifted the basket after listening to other owners who suggested the deadspace was too small so I did a work around which I have found it makes no difference and use it as is.
The deadspace is fine as long as long as you get your flow and grain crush that suits the machine a s I have said before, not enough flow through any grainbed causes a back up at the top and starves the deadspace.

I don't really get the issue with the taller grain basket.. just because you can add more grain does not mean that you must.. the same grain bill in the gen 3 basket Vs the gen 4 basket shouldn't result in a difference should it?

The taller basket then gives the option to use larger grain bills when necessary (and prepared!), or perhaps brewing larger volumes in combination with the boil extender.

That being said, my main criticism of the Brewzilla units is indeed the narrower diameter of the basket, but this is a criticism of both gen 3 and 4. In my opinion gen 4 is definitely an improvement over gen 3. But both can be used to make equally good beer.

If money was no object, I would go for the Grainfather G40 I think. It seems to have the right combination of ease of use and smooth operation without being a machine that will do the brewing for you.

As you go for bigger machines the evening out of mash temp becomes easier to control as a larger amount of liquid is enabled to be temp controlled better than a smaller amount so as you go even bigger to to 60l plus that allows more accurate temp control.
part of the problem with all smaller units is because of this that they have smaller volumes

Bang on. Ditto big ferments are easier.

MashBag said:

That makes a lot of sense. Does the pump up from the bottom feature of braumeister make a difference too in terms of the fluid dynamics?

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Speidel patented the pumping of the wort in an upward direction, as you will know it is a powerful pump. There is no better unit on the market, plus the fact that it is a lifetime-buy, the cemented-in elements in the Chinese units mean a limited life span should the element die. This is another reason of my choice of the Grainfather over other units should the element die I can easily replace the element due to the gauge of s/steel body.

The Baron said:

I totally disagree the temperature probe is located very close to the heat source so it gives a completely false mash temperature hence the probe placed in the mash to get a more accurate temperature. The mash has stratification due to heat differential as it flows through the mash hence the grain crush is critical for speedier flow through as it is with any AIO apart from the Braumeister as pointed out by Mashbag as it is a bottom flow up the grainbed.
So a measure of temp in the middle will give a average temp of the mash.
Yes it would help if you did not have to adapt any model but unfortunately that is how version 2's and 3's are created by users finding out quirks missed in developements.
I do not know of a industry where this does not happen sometimes they are as simple as a recall others become version 2's etc.
I lifted the basket after listening to other owners who suggested the deadspace was too small so I did a work around which I have found it makes no difference and use it as is.
The deadspace is fine as long as long as you get your flow and grain crush that suits the machine a s I have said before, not enough flow through any grainbed causes a back up at the top and starves the deadspace.

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The ideal place is either near the pump intake or just after the pump. There is one unit on the market which places the probe directly in the outlet. Heat exchange starts as soon as the wort enters the pump inlet. The energy created by the HE goes every which way away from the source so for instance a probe was placed half way up the unit measuring the temperature there then the HS would keep bumping up the heat which would have a greater differential to the bottom. That is the reason why they are all placed on the bottom of the unit.
It is only common sense that a flow is better with a larger circumference compared to a tall narrow circumference, that is why mash/ lauter tuns are designed to be wider rather than taller. It is taking advantage of the easier flow through a shallow grain bed.

tondy79 said:

I don't really get the issue with the taller grain basket.. just because you can add more grain does not mean that you must.. the same grain bill in the gen 3 basket Vs the gen 4 basket shouldn't result in a difference should it?

The taller basket then gives the option to use larger grain bills when necessary (and prepared!), or perhaps brewing larger volumes in combination with the boil extender.

That being said, my main criticism of the Brewzilla units is indeed the narrower diameter of the basket, but this is a criticism of both gen 3 and 4. In my opinion gen 4 is definitely an improvement over gen 3. But both can be used to make equally good beer.

If money was no object, I would go for the Grainfather G40 I think. It seems to have the right combination of ease of use and smooth operation without being a machine that will do the brewing for you.

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No, one doesn't have to add more grain but in a narrow basket the liquor drains slower than a wide shallow basket.
You are right to question the use of the taller basket and reducing the dead space. It just doesn't make any sense.
Yes the shallow the grain bed is the better the flow.

In a nut shell, it's like buying a Mini Cooper and finding it is not as fast as a Lambo, every aio will have it's faults they are a compromise

I want to have the temp of the mash measured not the temp of the deadspace or the pump inlet/outlet how does that help with a stable mash temp?
Hence I use a secondary probe in the mash. I can not see the logic in measuring the temp at the bottom or the pump as it would be way higher than the grainbed which is also subject to flow through again depending on graincrush.

Watching this brewery thread from afar.
A lot of the enzymes do enter the liquid wort, so if the wort near the element is hotter than planned target or top of grain bed you'll find a difference in enzyme performance. Ideally a highly liquid churning mash with even temperature throughout would work best ( for temperature ). Not so good for efficiency, but a pump that can cope with a runny porridge isn't available on the homebrew scale, large pots with stirring achieve the churn but temp control becomes tricky.
Luckily for us the enzymes we use aren't binary but fairly analogue so there's some wiggle room on temperature.
I use a modified Guten 70 litre mainly for 25 litre batches, separate whirlpool mixing the deadspace between malt pipe and kettle wall, recirculating over the grain at the same time and measure the base temperature and liquid temperature onto the mash simultaneously.
Controlled by an aftermarket PID which links into brewfather and can be controlled from the phone or PC.

Finally I can set and forget for mashing, but do still stir during pump rests. Normally all goes well, but a step mash with double decoction and a high percentage of rye was a trial at the weekend.

I started with a robobrew 3 and found it perfectly adequate, but I was constrained by volume so stepped up.

Seem to be some incredible deals on the klarstein mundschenk a brewzilla 3 / robobrew 3 clone. I'd be learning and pimping one of these if starting to all grain brew.

Many sales of Brewzilla 4 and now 4.1 in the wild, but seems to be a lot of " Ferrari " being driven in first gear, turning off all the features or needing to " upgrade " out of the box to get the features desired.

I think it's fair to say that suggestions that the BZ4 is ideal for large/high ABV batches or that things like the extension collar are the way to go if you regularly want to brew big beers or big batches would be misleading. In fact a significant part of the attraction of the unit for me is it's suitability to brew smaller batches, not larger.

RoomWithABrew said:

Many sales of Brewzilla 4 and now 4.1 in the wild, but seems to be a lot of " Ferrari " being driven in first gear, turning off all the features or needing to " upgrade " out of the box to get the features desired.

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I can see this perspective. I bought with an accessory bundle because I think the diverter plate and the jacket (or a DIY alternative) are really must haves and the BT thermometer becomes that way if you want to experiement with step mashing. The commercial reality is that Kegland are competing on a price/value footing and although I recall them floating the idea of the diverter plate being standard I expect they would be reluctant to lift the base unit price point by much if anything.

On the PID side of things some of the phrasing I've heard around it gives the sense that they really want to direct people away from it just because it's not something that can be used without some investment of time on the user's side. It was probably oversold initially as a fire and forget solution to temp control rather than the advanced user feature it actually is.

I'm probably unusual in that I've been watching brew day vids on youtube with the various iterations of these AIOs since the first Grainfather and Robobrew units. I've seen the stuck mashes and pump blockages and overflows so my expectations aren't that one will solve all my brewing problems. I can imagine there are a large number of buyers out there who imagined they were getting something they weren't though.

I agree with most of what brewsby has posted.
The comments "I can imagine there are a large number of buyers out there who imagined they were getting something they weren't though." mainly applies to newbies as most previous AIO owners will know limitations and generally watch plenty of youtube vids and read reports before buying.
I knew what to expect and I am pleased with the product but it does really need the BT thermometer to get accurate mash temps IMO.

The Baron said:

I want to have the temp of the mash measured not the temp of the deadspace or the pump inlet/outlet how does that help with a stable mash temp?
Hence I use a secondary probe in the mash. I can not see the logic in measuring the temp at the bottom or the pump as it would be way higher than the grainbed which is also subject to flow through again depending on graincrush.

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So is it then pointless calibrating the temperature control of the unit? Of course not, it is important to calibrate the kettle and then synchronise the probes to the kettle. The factory fitted probes in all the different units are where they should be, at the bottom near the element.
Just regard it as a datum point, if doing a standard 3-1 water to grain ratio we should all understand that there are going to be pockets of either hotter or cooler areas throughout the mash they may be near the bottom, part way up, or close to the top.
One of the reasons for carrying out full volume mashing, the more fluid the mash the better the efficiency, and for evening the temperature throughout the wort with good recirculation.

The Baron said:

I agree with most of what brewsby has posted.
The comments "I can imagine there are a large number of buyers out there who imagined they were getting something they weren't though." mainly applies to newbies as most previous AIO owners will know limitations and generally watch plenty of youtube vids and read reports before buying.
I knew what to expect and I am pleased with the product but it does really need the BT thermometer to get accurate mash temps IMO.

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If mash temperature is important, and it is, then I think that logic should dictate that the system temperature sensor should be at the point the wort leaves the recirculation arm ? It is difficult and so it is placed as far away from that point as can be imagined in the case of the Bz. Now that is a fault I think but the RAPT thermo counters that very well IMO .
The problem for all AIO systems it that the flow of wort cannot be regulated in such a way that the wort leaving the reciculation pipe is actually representitive of the maximum temperature within the system this is the resaon we see over shoots IMO . Even with stirring the system is still not completely at equilibrium and when you add the fact that even in the most finely balanced situation when the controller stops the heating cycle there is still residual heat stored in the hot plate... over shoots. I have found with my Bz even after a lot of careful experimentation my system over and under shoots on an approximately -0.5 C at the dead space sensor to +0.7 ish at the RAPT regardless of what mash temp I choose. I set my heater at 20% and the max temp difference at 1C and the Hysterisis at 0.3 for mashing and find for a mashing temp the RAPT cycles back and forth between 65.5 and 66.7C . But the crucial thing for me is grain crush and I use a very course crush at 1.6mm and mash for 90 mins this allows for a good recirculation rate which of course greatly helps stabilise the mashing temperature. Of course the minute you add different grains to the bill your system balance changes.

I'm going to sell my BZ gen 4... I transfer to the fermenter through the tap . it clogs every time... What am I doing wrong?

Barone said:

I'm going to sell my BZ gen 4... I transfer to the fermenter through the tap . it clogs every time... What am I doing wrong?

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Take a look at @Druss post number 6675 in What did you brew today thread. Like many other first-time users of the Klarstein Mundschenk, Brew Monk, Guten, or whatever they call them in Brazil they work perfectly well straight out of the box his first brew went as sweet as a nut. Maybe sell it and get something similar.