Yeast confusion

[trevorS]

Been brewing kits for years with dried yeast with no problems , recently started AG, on to brew 12 now i think all been fine some cloudy but all drinkable ( very much so) but now i find myself looking at the more expensive liquid yeasts and the methods of growing and using them batch size re harvesting washing storage etc, and find myself rather confused as the most economic viable method!
Can anyone point me in the direction of start to finish method of using these yeasts

 

[Brew Dad]

I have been doing this for my last 10 or so brews:

http://brulosophy.com/methods/yeast-harvesting/

Allows me to have a few yeasts strains always on hand - currently Omega Dipa, Wyeast Thames Valley, and Wyeast American II. There are probably somewhat cheaper methods, as I do use some dry malt extract for the starters, but much, much cheaper than buying new pack of liquid yeast every brew day.

 

[Drunkula]

As above and also from an overbuilt starter store some pure yeast in a 50/50 water/glycerine solution in the freezer and you can basically have that yeast forever and scoop a bit out and build a starter from it. I use tiny jam jars that I put the solution in then sterilise in a pressure cooker.

 

[Hoppyland]

Well, if you're only on your 12th AG brew, then for me the biggest thing is to find a yeast that you're really happy with.
By that, I mean:
A: It produces a beer that you really like. It might be very clean, or it might have estery/banana strong yeast flavours. Or something inbetween. It might be very flocculant, dropping clear quickly, or it might take ages for the yeast haze to drop out of the beer ,but you're fine with that.
B: It suits the way you ferment. Some yeasts produce a hell of a lot of yeasty foam on the top (aka "krausen"). This can be a nuisance if you're not expecting it as froth will pour out of your airlock if you're fermentor is pretty full (in which case you need a blow-off tube). And you know how it performs within a certain temperature range.

Basically, I'd advise you to do many brews with a single particular yeast that you like (dried, liquid, slopes, whatever), just so you get to know your setup really well. Then introduce occasional other yeasts to see what differences there might be. Don't be gulled into thinking dried yeasts are just for amateurs, and "real" brewers always use liquid yeasts. Definitely not so.
And all yeasts are capable of propagation from one fermentation to the next, over several generations.

 

[trevorS]

I have been doing this for my last 10 or so brews:

http://brulosophy.com/methods/yeast-harvesting/

Allows me to have a few yeasts strains always on hand - currently Omega Dipa, Wyeast Thames Valley, and Wyeast American II. There are probably somewhat cheaper methods, as I do use some dry malt extract for the starters, but much, much cheaper than buying new pack of liquid yeast every brew day.

Thanks for that but I was lost in the first few lines of the website calculations!

 

[trevorS]

Well, if you're only on your 12th AG brew, then for me the biggest thing is to find a yeast that you're really happy with.
By that, I mean:
A: It produces a beer that you really like. It might be very clean, or it might have estery/banana strong yeast flavours. Or something inbetween. It might be very flocculant, dropping clear quickly, or it might take ages for the yeast haze to drop out of the beer ,but you're fine with that.
B: It suits the way you ferment. Some yeasts produce a hell of a lot of yeasty foam on the top (aka "krausen"). This can be a nuisance if you're not expecting it as froth will pour out of your airlock if you're fermentor is pretty full (in which case you need a blow-off tube). And you know how it performs within a certain temperature range.

Basically, I'd advise you to do many brews with a single particular yeast that you like (dried, liquid, slopes, whatever), just so you get to know your setup really well. Then introduce occasional other yeasts to see what differences there might be. Don't be gulled into thinking dried yeasts are just for amateurs, and "real" brewers always use liquid yeasts. Definitely not so.
And all yeasts are capable of propagation from one fermentation to the next, over several generations.

Sounds like good advice I will keep using the same yeast for a while.

 

[An Ankoù]

Well, if you're only on your 12th AG brew, then for me the biggest thing is to find a yeast that you're really happy with.
By that, I mean:
A: It produces a beer that you really like. It might be very clean, or it might have estery/banana strong yeast flavours. Or something inbetween. It might be very flocculant, dropping clear quickly, or it might take ages for the yeast haze to drop out of the beer ,but you're fine with that.
B: It suits the way you ferment. Some yeasts produce a hell of a lot of yeasty foam on the top (aka "krausen"). This can be a nuisance if you're not expecting it as froth will pour out of your airlock if you're fermentor is pretty full (in which case you need a blow-off tube). And you know how it performs within a certain temperature range.

Basically, I'd advise you to do many brews with a single particular yeast that you like (dried, liquid, slopes, whatever), just so you get to know your setup really well. Then introduce occasional other yeasts to see what differences there might be. Don't be gulled into thinking dried yeasts are just for amateurs, and "real" brewers always use liquid yeasts. Definitely not so.
And all yeasts are capable of propagation from one fermentation to the next, over several generations.

Couldn't agree more.
There are at least two ways of reusing yeast: rebuilding from a starter; cropping and repitching the yeast. In cropping, you scrape off some of the yeast on top of the beer when it's at its frothiest (full krausen, but why do people insist on German for beer-making terminology when it was invented in Yorkshire) You can keep this in a flask or jar in the fridge for about a maximum of two weeks and repitch it when you're ready. It means you've got to brew at least once a fortnight and use the same yeast. Some people pitch on the (or part of the) yeast cake left at the bottom of the secondary fermenter.
I'm not sure that liquid yeast is any better than dried yeast- you've just got more choice. In any case a cropped dried yeast is a liquid yeast.

 

[trevorS]

Couldn't agree more.
There are at least two ways of reusing yeast: rebuilding from a starter; cropping and repitching the yeast. In cropping, you scrape off some of the yeast on top of the beer when it's at its frothiest (full krausen, but why do people insist on German for beer-making terminology when it was invented in Yorkshire) You can keep this in a flask or jar in the fridge for about a maximum of two weeks and repitch it when you're ready. It means you've got to brew at least once a fortnight and use the same yeast. Some people pitch on the (or part of the) yeast cake left at the bottom of the secondary fermenter.
I'm not sure that liquid yeast is any better than dried yeast- you've just got more choice. In any case a cropped dried yeast is a liquid yeast.

So in cropping you scrape off the yeast and use that alone as the yeast for the next brew ?

 

[Brew Dad]

Thanks for that but I was lost in the first few lines of the website calculations!

If I knew there would be math, I never would have started homebrewing!!!!

It's actually pretty simple, and the Brulosophy guys themselves tend to wing it with the numbers. Here's what I do, 24 hours or so before brewing:

Boil approx. 150 grams of DME in around 1.5 litres of water. Doesn't need to be exact. Leave until cooled to room temp.
Remove mason jar of previously harvested yeast (or new package of liquid yeast) from refrigerator at same time. Allow to come to room temp.
Pour cooled wort into suitable sanitized container. I use a one gallon glass growler.
Pour in yeast.
Lightly cover with sanitized foil, held in place with rubber band.
Swirl the living bejeezus out of said growler every time I walk buy (I usually keep it near my cold beer to ensure regular bejeezus swirling).

Day of brew:
Produce lovely sweet wort as per normal. Swear liberally when mistakes are made.
Before pitching starter into cooled wort, sanitize a mason jar, pour starter in until almost full, cap, refrigerate.
Pitch remaining yeast starter into beer.

As long as the liquid yeast you purchase is within 2-3 months of package date, this will work for you. I don't muck about with yeast calculators, although I would if the yeast were more than 4 months old, and/or if I ever decided to brew a BIG 7% or higher ABV beer. For low to moderate ABV beers, and reasonably fresh liquid yeast, this works, and works well. My beers kick off much faster now, too, sometimes in as little as 5 or 6 hours.

 

[trevorS]

If I knew there would be math, I never would have started homebrewing!!!!

It's actually pretty simple, and the Brulosophy guys themselves tend to wing it with the numbers. Here's what I do, 24 hours or so before brewing:

Boil approx. 150 grams of DME in around 1.5 litres of water. Doesn't need to be exact. Leave until cooled to room temp.
Remove mason jar of previously harvested yeast (or new package of liquid yeast) from refrigerator at same time. Allow to come to room temp.
Pour cooled wort into suitable sanitized container. I use a one gallon glass growler.
Pour in yeast.
Lightly cover with sanitized foil, held in place with rubber band.
Swirl the living bejeezus out of said growler every time I walk buy (I usually keep it near my cold beer to ensure regular bejeezus swirling).

Day of brew:
Produce lovely sweet wort as per normal. Swear liberally when mistakes are made.
Before pitching starter into cooled wort, sanitize a mason jar, poor starter in until almost full, cap, refrigerate.
Pitch remaining yeast starter into beer.

As long as the liquid yeast you purchase is with 2-3 months of package date, this will work for. I don't muck about with yeast calculators, although I would if the yeast were more than 4 months old, and/or if I ever decided to brew a BIG 7% or higher ABV beer. For low to moderate ABV beers, and reasonably fresh liquid yeast, this works, and works well. My beers kick off much faster now, too, sometimes in as little as 5 or 6 hours.

That makes sense so I can discard the abacus now thanks!

 

[An Ankoù]

So in cropping you scrape off the yeast and use that alone as the yeast for the next brew ?

Yes, effectively.
If you've brewed within 2 or 3 days of a previous brew, or, if the yeast head stays on top of the beer for ages (like Wyeast West Yorkshire) then you can just spoon the yeast into the new brew. Otherwise, keep it in a sanitised, jar or flask or half-pint beer glass with about 2-3 cm of the beer it grew in, with an aluminium foil lid, in the fridge for up to two weeks.
All contact, at all stages of contact with the yeast must used sanitised utensils, needless to say.
How much to put into the new brew is a bit of guesswork. Go for a bit of an overpitch rather than underpitching. That means about a quarter to a half of the yeast head. It's amazing how quickly the yeast grows back to cover the old beer again.

 

[MyQul]

So in cropping you scrape off the yeast and use that alone as the yeast for the next brew ?

Be aware not all yeasts are good for top cropping. Really only the ones with massive krausens like Belgians and some English

 

[trevorS]

Be aware not all yeasts are good for top cropping. Really only the ones with massive krausens like Belgians and some English

Hmm that complicates things!

 

[An Ankoù]

Hmm that complicates things!

Don't panic. If it's got a good head then you can top crop as described above. Some American yeasts just "fizz" rather than producing any kind of rocky head and, while I haven't used them, I don't think yeast/bacillus mixtures can be cropped that way.
Why not tell us what yeasts you've got in mind? There's bound to be someone on the forum who's used it and can tell you what it's like.
Above all, experiment.

 

[trevorS]

Don't panic. If it's got a good head then you can top crop as described above. Some American yeasts just "fizz" rather than producing any kind of rocky head and, while I haven't used them, I don't think yeast/bacillus mixtures can be cropped that way.
Why not tell us what yeasts you've got in mind? There's bound to be someone on the forum who's used it and can tell you what it's like.
Above all, experiment.

Well this conversation started when I wanted to use Whitelabs WLP 005 english ale for the Greg Hughes pale ale recipe which I have brewed about 8 times using a generic ale yeast but at around £7 a time is a little expensive so if it could be made to do several brews it would be more acceptable

 

[An Ankoù]

Well this conversation started when I wanted to use Whitelabs WLP 005 english ale for the Greg Hughes pale ale recipe which I have brewed about 8 times using a generic ale yeast but at around £7 a time is a little expensive so if it could be made to do several brews it would be more acceptable

This is a controversial yeast inasmuch as it's claimed that Whitelabs have isolated only a single strain from the Ringwood house yeast wich has at least two component strains. If you look at the web discussions, it's mostly about this. My advice would be: buy one sachet for £7 or so. Use it. When it reaches its peak of rocky-headness, 2-3 days max, harvest it. If it doesn't work (and it will). Go for another yeast. Ringwood isn't a pure, single variety yeast strain, but I think WLP 005 is.
I'm not even sure that Ringwood Brewery have still got the the original strain. Shipyard probably has, though.

 

[Brew Dad]

@trevorS As I have a brew day planned for tomorrow, took a few pics of my high tech yeast harvesting operation for you.

Growler with star san, yeast from previous harvest coming to room temp:

 

[Brew Dad]

Eyeballed amount of DME (guessing around 125-150g):

 

[Brew Dad]

Based on the markings on the pot, looks like I guessed wrong on amount of water. Only about 1.25 instead 1.5 litres. Good enough.

 

[Brew Dad]

Close up of harvested yeast from previous starter: