Why does this have to be so confusing!?

[Monkhouse]

I’ve been trying to get my head around some very basic water chemistry now for weeks to no avail.
The kind people on this forum have offered their advice which although often conflicting is still nice to hear but can end up more confusing. The links people have thrown my way have also been nice to read through but make me more overwhelmed by it all lol.
I live in a soft water area- I’ve heard that stouts favour a hard water profile so I thought this must be simple to fix.
Better head retention and better mouthfeel on my stouts is what I’m after.
Head over to brewers friend to use their calculator.
Input my water source mineral levels etc from water report- great, fine done that.
Choose Dublin dry stout profile target, yep great.
Then this is what I get- (see pictures)
Exactly how does this help me? Where does it say what I need to add to change my water that I use into more of a Dublin stout water profile?
Am I being thick here or what?

 

[chthon]

This report indeed gives what you are missing, but it does not say what you can add to your brewing water to increase your

• Ca (calcium) ions
• SO4 (sulphate) ions
• HCO3 (carbonate) ions

The first can be added using calciumchloride (CaCl) and calcium sulphate (CaSO4). The second can be added using pickling lime or sodium bicarbonate. Look in this forum for the simple and advanced water treatment topics. People will guide you to a solution.

 

[Clarence]

I don't really get it all either. So I bought a Salifert KH alkalinity hardness kit and a calcium kit as these seem to be the only issues that really matter. I now adjust the hardness with CRS and add a teaspoon of calcium sulphate and a teaspoon of Calcium Chloride to the mash, and another teaspoon of calcium sulphate to the sparge (or the boil if doing no sparge). Much less for lager.
As far as I know, stout doesn't require hard water as such, but it can handle much more alkalinity than other styles.

 

[Sadfield]

Brewers friend, ha! Not much of a calculator is it. You'd think it would calculate and update itself as you work through the sections, even just as a time saving tool. Instead it doesn't do what you require.

Secondly, that Dublin profile won't improve your mouthfeel as it has very similar, extremely low chloride and sodium values, as your source water. Even if the calculator did work as required.

 

[Buffers brewery]

Just used your numbers in the water calculator at the top of the Home page

This is the result…

Does that help?

 

[foxy]

I’ve been trying to get my head around some very basic water chemistry now for weeks to no avail.
The kind people on this forum have offered their advice which although often conflicting is still nice to hear but can end up more confusing. The links people have thrown my way have also been nice to read through but make me more overwhelmed by it all lol.
I live in a soft water area- I’ve heard that stouts favour a hard water profile so I thought this must be simple to fix.
Better head retention and better mouthfeel on my stouts is what I’m after.
Head over to brewers friend to use their calculator.
Input my water source mineral levels etc from water report- great, fine done that.
Choose Dublin dry stout profile target, yep great.
Then this is what I get- (see pictures)
Exactly how does this help me? Where does it say what I need to add to change my water that I use into more of a Dublin stout water profile?
Am I being thick here or what?

Its right there in front of you the delta is the variant between the two, that is in mg/litre just convert to g/litre gives you what to add to give you Dublin water profile.
bi-carb is 0.24g/litre calcium is 0.1g/litre gypsum is 0.05g/litre
I wouldn't be adding any more Mg you have more than enough plus you will get almost 1g/kg from the malted barley.
Mimicking a brewing water won't help you as you don't know what additions brewers use in those areas do to adjust their water.

 

[Old Fart At Play]

As Buffers said, just use the calculator on here - works a treat

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

Another free to use spreadsheet based calculator is mash made easy, made by a member over at the American Homebrewtalk forum. I use it for my water adjustment, it works a charm and the guy who designed it is very helpful if you have any questions or input.

 

[Leon103]

In beersmith, once you have converted if to a Dublin style profile you need to save it and then import it into your recipe. Simple enough. Not sure if brewers friend is the same.

 

[matt76]

The problem for newbies with the Brewer's Friend water calculator is it only tells you the result - it assumes you already have some idea what to add, which of course you don't if you're new to water treatment.

It's fine once you get the hang of it, but it's not the most intuitive. Honestly I barely ever use it now since I know from experience what I need to add for the beers I make.

As @Buffers brewery and @Old Fart At Play say, you might find the forum water calculator more useful - IIRC you enter your water and the beer you're making and it suggests what you need to add.

Regarding water profiles for a given style, you might find this old post more useful - still use it as my go to of I'm making a style I've not done before:
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/suggested-water-profiles-by-style.81848/

 

[foxy]

As Buffers said, just use the calculator on here - works a treat

The thing is we are trying to get the pH right. Without a grain bill, and when the grains are added to the mash how can one get the pH near to the target of 5.2 - 5.6?
For instance if I am making a stout i will only include the fermentables in the wort. Why, this makes water additions so much easier. My water profiles are within a poofteenth of each other to achieve the main objective of mash pH. The buffering which goes on with the grain counts. I add my non fermentables at mash out so the calc's Buffers put up would be absolutely useless for me. BF and many others incorporate the grain bill, if I add my roasts and chocolate for a stout at mash out I don't need any bi-carb! The bi-carb is only there to counter the acidity of the roast grains going into the mash, if they aren't in the mash or are steeped then the forecast pH is going tits up.

 

[Sadfield]

The bi-carb is only there to counter the acidity of the roast grains going into the mash

Only if you assume that it doesn't contribute anything the flavour and mouthfeel perception.

Stouts should have a high mineral content, because brewers were working the other way round, the water was what they had, they used roasted grains to bring the pH down. The roasted grains are only there to counter the carbonate.

 

[foxy]

Only if you assume that it doesn't contribute anything the flavour and mouthfeel perception.

Stouts should have a high mineral content, because brewers were working the other way round, the water was what they had, they used roasted grains to bring the pH down. The roasted grains are only there to counter the carbonate.

Then why do Guinness steep their roasted grains ?
https://www.brunwater.com/articles/...eep the roast,call “Guinness Flavor Extract”.

 

[Sadfield]

Then why do Guinness steep their roasted grains ?
https://www.brunwater.com/articles/...eep the roast,call “Guinness Flavor Extract”.

Because modern Guinness is a facsimile of stout. Check their old recipes, they never used to do that. And I'd wager 99% of commercial breweries don't.

It's all marketing. Outside if Ireland I've never had a Stout that's as bad as Guinness's, it's a unique concoction not a benchmark.

 

[Clint]

I used to like Guinness...it used to have a unique "sour" or tart after taste. It's quite bland now.

 

[Sadfield]

Almost as if they've changed the way its made.

 

[Clint]

I recall reading something about the original Brewery either had a wild yeast present or they used to retain some of the wort or beer and let it sour then add it back.

 

[foxy]

I used to like Guinness...it used to have a unique "sour" or tart after taste. It's quite bland now.

Almost as if they've changed the way its made.

Depends where it is made. The worst Guinness in the world is brewed in Malaysia. Guinness here is brewed in Sydney. The best Guinness by far is brewed in Dublin, soured, steeped grains to avoid astringency and a high IBU.
Last time I went to the UK the first thing I did when I got to my final destination was go and buy some bottles of Guinness foreign extra stout. Best stout ever for me.

I recall reading something about the original Brewery either had a wild yeast present or they used to retain some of the wort or beer and let it sour then add it back.

If you want to try to replicate it 10% of sour added is as close as I have got. Add back in the fermenter.

 

[Sadfield]

It's worth remembering that Guinness has been nitro'd for decades. Mashing without alkalinity, then adding steeped dark grains would result in lower wort pH. This would replace the lost acidity from not having CO2 in the served beer.
It would also potentially allow one mash to produce both Guinness Stout and Hop House Lager. It would also standardise and streamline the process to the breweries that don't have access to that Wicklow water. Whether it's beer or burgers, blandness is easy to replicate globally.

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I’ve been trying to get my head around some very basic water chemistry now for weeks to no avail.
The kind people on this forum have offered their advice which although often conflicting is still nice to hear but can end up more confusing. The links people have thrown my way have also been nice to read through but make me more overwhelmed by it all lol.
I live in a soft water area- I’ve heard that stouts favour a hard water profile so I thought this must be simple to fix.
Better head retention and better mouthfeel on my stouts is what I’m after.
Head over to brewers friend to use their calculator.
Input my water source mineral levels etc from water report- great, fine done that.
Choose Dublin dry stout profile target, yep great.
Then this is what I get- (see pictures)
Exactly how does this help me? Where does it say what I need to add to change my water that I use into more of a Dublin stout water profile?
Am I being thick here or what?

none of the replies you got help you. I’ve got a water calculator produced by a former forum member. Tell me your local profile, grain bill, mash and sparge volumes and what you’re brewing and I will calculate it for you.