Why does my AG beer taste so bad??

[garymscott]

OK, so I'm looking for some advice on AG brewing. I've only tried AG four times and the last three batches have been undrinkable.

I'm hoping that if I describe my equipment and ingredients that it might provide some clues as to why my beer is tasting nasty

The recipes I've used all come from the book 'Home Brew Beer' by Greg Hughes:

Honey Ale - This was my first attempt at AG. It turned out fairly convincingly but I just wasn't a fan.
Pale Ale - I've tried this recipe three times in a row now but it has just resulted in a cloudy ale with a harsh chemically up-front taste. It's not drinkable at all.

Whilst not everything went to plan with the first to pale ale attempts, on the third attempt the mash temperature, OG and FG were all in line with the recipe. The fermentation temperature was a steady 21C.

Here's my equipment list:
- HLT & Boiler: Burco Cygnet 30 Litre fitted with Bazooka hop screen
- Mash tun: Cheap cooler box fitted with home made copper manifold
- Tubing material: Silicone

Pale ale ingredients (Sourced from the-home-brew-shop.co.uk):
- Extra pale malt
- Light crystal malt
- Challenger pellet hops
- East Kent Golding pellet hops
- Styrian Golding pellet hops
- Whitelabs WLP005 English ale yeast

Water source: Tesco value bottled water

Fining agent: Protofloc

Steriliser:
For equipment - VWP steriliser
For bottles - Brew Safe no-rinse

My thoughts:
When I was brewing with kits they all tasted fine so I'm assuming I'm making an error somewhere with the mash and fermentation is not the issue.
I'm using pellet hops instead of leaf hops - thus some hop sludge is getting through the bazooka screen in the boiler and eventually ending up in the bottles. I'm wondering whether this is causing the bad taste?

 

[Dads_Ale]

My first thought would be that you have some carry over of the VWP. Whilst this is a good steriliser it does need very thorough rinsing to remove all traces. This applies across all of your equipment not just post boil.
I have now changed to using PBW for cleaning after brew day (much better than VWP at removing the crud, still need a rinse though) and Starsan on to sanitise.

Hope this helps as nothing more annoying than losing a brew.

 

[Klemay83]

I agree that it might be traces of the VWP. I use it and haven't had any issues so far. I make sure that I really thougouly rinse with quite hot water, rather than warm water as it states on the tub. I also use probably slightly less than the amount it says to use. So far my methods are working.

You could try not using the VWP. Substitute it for a different cleaner, and just use the starsan for sterilising everything.

 

[garymscott]

Hi guys thanks for the thought. I've used VWP for the kits I've brewed previously and not had this problem. I do make sure I thoroughly rinse all the fermentation equipment after sterilising. It's certainly a valid point though as the beer does taste chemically, so I'll sterilise everything with the Brew Safe for my next brew.

I only rinse and sponge the boiler, mash tun and copper chiller clean after using though. Should I be sterilising these too perhaps?

 

[Dads_Ale]

In theory you shouldn't need to do much with the mash tun and boiler as anything nasty should be killed off during the boil. However I do clean all of mine after use with PBW solution, this does a good job of removing the brown protein crud that can form over time.
What type of chiller is it? If it is an immersion chiller than putting it into the boiler 15 mins before the end should sort it but probably wouldn't hurt to sanitise it anyway.

 

[MyQul]

In your welcome post you mentioned your pale ale was "harsh". My immediate thought was your trying to make a pale ale with hard (high in alkalinity) water. But now having read all the details I'd agree with everyone else, that a chemically taste, will, surprise,surprise come from chemicals. Especially as your using bottled water rather than your own tap water. Check the label though o the tesco bottled water and look for bicarbonates. you want them to be less than 50 when making pales. You might be having a combintion of off flavours rather than just the one

As someone else mentioned, try a differenct cleaner. You could try oxi-clean because you can get a massive tub ful from the pound shop (I buy mine from ASDA) really cheaply so you wont be having to spend loads of money on a new cleaner.

The only other thing I can think of is, are you using any new plastic, such as new FV's. Food grade plastic isnt supposed to leach chemicals but I'm pretty sure it happened to me and another member reported it happening when he first used his new plastic conical

 

[garymscott]

In your welcome post you mentioned your pale ale was "harsh". My immediate thought was your trying to make a pale ale with hard (high in alkalinity) water. But now having read all the details I'd agree with everyone else, that a chemically taste, will, surprise,surprise come from chemicals. Especially as your using bottled water rather than your own tap water. Check the label though o the tesco bottled water and look for bicarbonates. you want them to be less than 50 when making pales. You might be having a combintion of off flavours rather than just the one

As someone else mentioned, try a differenct cleaner. You could try oxi-clean because you can get a massive tub ful from the pound shop (I buy mine from ASDA) really cheaply so you wont be having to spend loads of money on a new cleaner.

Hmm... ok I've just checked the Tesco value water and these are the values:

Typical values (mg/l):
Calcium 38
Magnesium 12
Sodium 8
Potassium 2.5
Chloride 12
Sulphate 14
Nitrate 5
Dry residue at 180C 219
pH at source 7.8

I'm guessing the pH is too alkaline?

 

[MyQul]

Hmm... ok I've just checked the Tesco value water and these are the values:

Typical values (mg/l):
Calcium 38
Magnesium 12
Sodium 8
Potassium 2.5
Chloride 12
Sulphate 14
Nitrate 5
Dry residue at 180C 219
pH at source 7.8

I'm guessing the pH is too alkaline?

What your looking for is a figure for bicarbonates or carbonates(CaC03/C03). It might not say. PH of the water has no effect on your beer

 

[johnnyboy1965]

What is your recipe for your Pale Ale ?

 

[MyQul]

Deleted. ......

 

[garymscott]

What your looking for is a figure for bicarbonates or carbonates(CaC03/C03). It might not say. PH of the water has no effect on your beer

Ah found the answer (bicarbonate: 155) on this forum! http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=55018http://

I'm guessing the website that Twostage located the value was this one: http://www.aqua-direct.co.uk/our-source.aspx

Does this render the water unsuitable or can I treat it with something?

 

[MyQul]

Ah found the answer (bicarbonate: 155) on this forum! http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=55018http://

I'm guessing the website that Twostage located the value was this one: http://www.aqua-direct.co.uk/our-source.aspx

Does this render the water unsuitable or can I treat it with something?

155 is good for dark ales like stouts but not for pales. If you want to use bottled water for pales use ASDA Eden Falls as its 30ppm - This is what I use for pales and have got good results. When I previously used my tap water (188ppm) I got a harsh bitterness/a bitter aftertaste, rather than the clean bitterness that I was after

However...I strongly doubt that the wrong water make up is the reason for chemically tastes. As others have said I would be looking at chemicals for the off flavour you've had in your beers

 

[IainM]

155 is good for dark ales like stouts but not for pales.

Hi MyQul,
I don't mean to go off topic, but what do you think would be best in line, CaCO3 level wise, for a black IPA? Its a dark ale, so I'd think high, but its also a pale ale, which would suggest low.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Hmm... ok I've just checked the Tesco value water and these are the values:

Typical values (mg/l):
Calcium 38
Magnesium 12
Sodium 8
Potassium 2.5
Chloride 12
Sulphate 14
Nitrate 5
Dry residue at 180C 219
pH at source 7.8

I'm guessing the pH is too alkaline?

Hi Y'all I have to chip in here, I use the tesco value water and have done ipa's with it - it is fine, your problem lies elsewhere. I have no experience of vwp though. :hmm:

if not convinced tesco's ashbeck has only 25ppm bicarbs

 

[garymscott]

Cheers guys that's useful info about the water - I learned something today! I'll go ahead with the next brew as planned but just use the Brew Safe this time. I'll report back with the results!

 

[MyQul]

Hi MyQul,
I don't mean to go off topic, but what do you think would be best in line, CaCO3 level wise, for a black IPA? Its a dark ale, so I'd think high, but its also a pale ale, which would suggest low.

IPA's aren't a style I particularly like as they're too hoppy for me but I've wondered this myself. However I've got a sneaky suspicion its easier to make a dark beer with soft water than it is to make a pale with hard water. I recently made a brown ale with ASDA Eden Falls and it it turned out as good as using my harder tap water. So even though this is only one data point it kind of confirms my little theory for me. Therefore if by some miracle I was ever to make a Black IPA I'd go with a pale ale water profile

 

[MyQul]

Hi Y'all I have to chip in here, I use the tesco value water and have done ipa's with it - it is fine, your problem lies elsewhere. I have no experience of vwp though. :hmm:

if not convinced tesco's ashbeck has only 25ppm bicarbs

I deffo agree here, I think the problem isn't the water profile. I think I led the OP up the garden path by mentioning it in the first place

 

[johnnyboy1965]

I too dont think its a water problem. Youve ruled out "chemicals" because everything was fine when you used kits. Thats why I asked for your recipe. If you using too many hops, your brew will taste harsh. Im on the "hoppy" side of the beer fence, but anything over 55 IBU`s and it can be harsh, especially if your using a lot of bittering hops.

 

[Sandimas]

Likewise, I've brewed with Tesco Value water and it's fine.

The reason I brewed with it was similar to you, my AGs weren't up to scratch compared to my previous brewing experience with kits and extract. The eventual problem with mine were infections with symptoms similar to yours: chemically taste, cloudy...eventually a couple of the bottles exploded as the infections chewed on the non-fermentables.

I never did track down what caused it as I trebled my cleaning regime after this, but I suspect they got in somewhere in the cooling process after the boil - AGs take much longer to cool as they're full-volume.

I'm a long-time user of VWP - it's fine, but if you leave it in an FV for more than a few weeks it starts to separate out and the crystals cling to the side, so when you wash it out they're still there and are hard to shift. I've got an FV that I can't clear of it completely.

You really need a local homebrewer to taste your beers, as we all taste and describe things differently. Mate of mine kept going on about an off flavour with his beer, as soon as I tasted it it was the same infected-flavour that I had with mine.

 

[Hops_and_Dreams]

155 is good for dark ales like stouts but not for pales. If you want to use bottled water for pales use ASDA Eden Falls as its 30ppm - This is what I use for pales and have got good results. When I previously used my tap water (188ppm) I got a harsh bitterness/a bitter aftertaste, rather than the clean bitterness that I was after

However...I strongly doubt that the wrong water make up is the reason for chemically tastes. As others have said I would be looking at chemicals for the off flavour you've had in your beers

I've noticed this a couple of times on IPAs and wondered what it was. I was using Sainsburys basics water. Thanks for the info, will change the water I use.