Where to buy a pump capacitor? ANd how to control pump speed

[lancsSteve]

I have a Hallamshire cellar pump (bought from Aleman) but hav repeatedly made the capacitor go bang while brewing.

Here's the capacitor:

Have tried googling for the part but no joy, dropped an enquiry to hallamshire as well, will try and call. Any suggestions on where to get one of these capacitors from welcomed.

I also want to figure why it's blown and if I should be controlling my pump differently? I buil a bpass loop (see http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/view ... 6&p=426933 for pic and discussion on this) to control wort flow however if I use this for any time or try and pump in through a smaller diameter tap inlet I've gotten the loud bang and puff of smoke from the capacitor. So i need to replace it but also prevent it re-ocurring. Would adding something to reduce voltage to pump (i.e. something *like* a dimmer switch) help to reduce pump speed and prevent blowing capacitor again?

Any help on parts suppliers etc. MOST welcome!

 

[Aleman]

Well I'll be honest Steve and say that when I was using that pump I did so without a bypas loop . . . just controlling flow by a ball valve on the output . . . And a motor speed controller (aka Phase Angle Controller . . . I've posted links to them before . . . Mine was custom built, but United Automation do them as well . . .but not as cheap as mine.

As I said when you collected it, using the PAC to control the motor speed cause the motor to 'hunt' adn become less stable at lower speeds. . . . Now the pump I have now used to overheat and cut out when using the speed controller . . . but works fine with a bypass loop . . . Go Figure :wha:

Can't understand why running it at full power with a bypass loop is cuasing the motor capacitor to blow :wha: :wha: :wha:

 

[evanvine]

Electrolytics tend not to like AC up their juff!

 

[lancsSteve]

Got this reply from hallamshire:

Steve, I have looked at your picture, I do not recognise the number on the
capacitor and it does not match the capacitor number in one of the motors I
have here at the factory (it has probably been replaced in the past if it
has been repaired) Unfortunately I do not have any capacitors in stock as
this product is really obsolete now. I can advise you that you can get
capacitors from R.S.Components and checking our records our part number from
RS was 238-299 I have checked this number on their website and it tells me
that it is obsolete but gives an alternative 239-668 I hope this information
is of help to you.

Unfortunately replacement capacitor is 275v and out of stock till October :-(

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/sear ... 99&x=0&y=0

ANy other suggestions on replacement capacitors most welcome - am trying to figure out the values and search for one that will do and will then get one of the power regulators as well I recon...

 

[evanvine]

Wouldn't any non-electrolytic 0.1mF rated at 350V do?

 

[screamlead]

HOw about maplins online they may do them??

 

[Aleman]

Wouldn't any non-electrolytic 0.1mF rated at 350V do?

It's not just a 1 millifarad Capacitor . . . it also looks to have a pair of 4700 picofarad capacitors in there somewhere. . . .It's got to be a smoothing network of some kind but what and how to replace it :wha: :wha: . . . . Been a long time since I built something like that

 

[lancsSteve]

From chatting to a guy at March May his take was that if you;re blowing the capacitor there's "something else wrong" either motor's knackered or somethings' shorting out... Advice was replace don't try and fix (then again that might get me to buy a £160 pump so unsuprising advice I guess!)

So - anyone got further thoughts or ideas on why I'd be getting the loud bang and puff of smoke from the top of the pump, with pump still working afterwards but NOT a good sound...

The pump still functions after these bangs but it's unnerving and evidently NOT a healthy noise...

It happens when the flow is restricted e.g. over a long period of pumping using the recirc loop fully open and the outflow restricted. Is it symptomatic of: shorting, knackered pump motor, capacitor being wrong or need to limit pump speed or am I just doing something dumb (I do check it's not running dry!)

Steve

 

[jamesb]

Get some paper capacitors rated at the right voltage and connect them like this

------ C1 -----
|                   |
--C2---*--C3--
|         |         |
L         E         N

C1 = 100nF 250Vac RS 311-1074
C2, C3 = 4.7nF 250Vac RS 210-594

 

[lancsSteve]

Thanks - will work on those. ANy more thoughts from anyone on cause of capacitor blow outs (or is this a red herring after all?)

Steve

 

[jamesb]

how many times have you blown one?

 

[BarnsleyBrewer]

Buy a pump off Norm for £50.00 :thumb:

 

[lancsSteve]

how many times have you blown one?

It goes 'bang' every time I use it! Still works afterwards but whenever I use it and flow is restricted at all (e.g. pumping through narrower tap on HLT or restricting outflow even with recirc loop fully open.

From looking at it I thought it was this capacitor but could be symptom of something else?

See Bang Bang - that's the sound of my pump viewtopic.php?f=23&t=16024 thread for more

Steve

 

[lancsSteve]

Buy a pump off Norm for £50.00 :thumb:

Have you used one of them over 85c? FIguring a backup pump isn't a bad idea while I sort out capacitors and speed control etc.

 

[mixale]

I have an old Hallamshire pump that shorted out in a garage flood last year.
I'll check the spec of the capacitor on mine when I get home.

 

[Russell]

It is clear from the link that you posted that the capacitor is not a motor capacitor as such, not as start capacitor nor a phase shifting capacitor, but simply an interference suppression capacitor. It will run without it, no problem, technically illegally though.

It seems to have blown the core out of the capacitor, but it is difficult to think of a mechanism that will cause that to happen. There must either have been some seriously high voltage spikes coming off that motor, but those capacitors can stand about 2.5kV; or there must have been some serious harmonic currents being generated which caused the capacitor to get hot. Either way, the motor must have been under serious stress, and it probably did not do the brushes a lot of good either (it looks as if it has got brushes [or did have :lol:).

I assume that this has happened more than once with more than one capacitor, ruling out a primarily faulty capacitor. However, if this is just the original capacitor, then things might not be too bad. Phase angle speed controllers can put some serious harmonic currents through those capacitors, so they might have been damaged if one has been used previously. If you are going to use a phase angle speed controller, you might be better off without them anyway, or fit them to the mains end of your controller.

You can make up an eqivalent network, as jamessb pointed out, as long as the capacitors are X or Y rated, which the ones jamesb linked to are, of course, but they are there to meet EMC legislation and do not have any direct bearing on the functioning of the motor. Good they were there, though, because they probably gave you an early warning of an impending motor burn-out.

You've got to sort out the stress though.

 

[lancsSteve]

It is clear from the link that you posted that the capacitor is not a motor capacitor as such, not as start capacitor nor a phase shifting capacitor, but simply an interference suppression capacitor. It will run without it, no problem, technically illegally though.

Useful to know - legality is not a priority here, though safety is...

It seems to have blown the core out of the capacitor, but it is difficult to think of a mechanism that will cause that to happen. There must either have been some seriously high voltage spikes coming off that motor, but those capacitors can stand about 2.5kV; or there must have been some serious harmonic currents being generated which caused the capacitor to get hot. Either way, the motor must have been under serious stress, and it probably did not do the brushes a lot of good either (it looks as if it has got brushes [or did have :lol:).

Need to learn a LOT more about pumps I recon.... Or use a more sensible one for this kind of brewing like a tiny wee cheaper thing like http://shop.solarproject.co.uk/sp1410-w ... 5-p-1.html

I assume that this has happened more than once with more than one capacitor, ruling out a primarily faulty capacitor. However, if this is just the original capacitor, then things might not be too bad. Phase angle speed controllers can put some serious harmonic currents through those capacitors, so they might have been damaged if one has been used previously. If you are going to use a phase angle speed controller, you might be better off without them anyway, or fit them to the mains end of your controller.

Don't know full history - guessing still the original capacitor. Don't know if a speed controller was previously used (LeMan might?)

You can make up an eqivalent network, as jamessb pointed out, as long as the capacitors are X or Y rated, which the ones jamesb linked to are, of course, but they are there to meet EMC legislation and do not have any direct bearing on the functioning of the motor. Good they were there, though, because they probably gave you an early warning of an impending motor burn-out.

Well hopefully didn't burn motor out and either mixale will find a suitable one free :pray: or I'll wait until the suggested replacement comes in stock and then set this as my backup pump.

You've got to sort out the stress though.

Presumably that's from the motor working to pump too much through too small a gaps at full tilt straining the motor?

Def NOT an expert at using pumps, varying flow etc. Built the surrounding flowback plumbing following instructions and hoped it would work - have taken care not to run it dry (though did do so on one or two occasions for a few seconds). Have been pumping boiling liquids without knowing/checking temp limits. Hoping to get this to work again and then keep it as a backup pump and do what Barnsley Brewer suggests - get me a new one and use it under less strained conditions...

 

[unclepumble]

You won't overstrain the pump if you use a Bypass loop correctly configured.

You need to open the bypass valve fully before throttling the outlet valve then dial in the required flow by balancing the two.


The Cap was probably previously damaged by poor electrical control of the pump steve.

To control a pump correctly electrically ideally it needs to be done with a Drive with Vector control, not the sort of thing the average Joe plays with, a phase angle controller is not really the tool for the job, & is probably what caused the impending failure.

there are a couple of March mays on fleabay at the mo This one is good for 88deg as it has a polyprop body.

This one should be good up to 121 deg.

then there are a few others to consider http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PROCON-PU...staurant_RL&hash=item56372ba586#ht_500wt_1156This one looks interesting but needs one of these to get the best out of it.

It seems to be a series 5 pump and looks the ****, it can handle 250psi outlet pressure and can pump up to 330 gallons per hour, I cannot get any temp ranges of the manufacturers website but it does say solar applications, therefore should be good for hot wort, Applications include: Carbonated water for soft drink dispensers, Espresso coffee machines, Beer cooling systems, cooling for TIG Welders, Reverse Osmosis systems, ultra-filtration systems, cooling circulation, constant temperature control, atomizing / misting systems, Automated pesticide misting systems, carwash machines, steam cleaning machines, cooling for X-Ray and medical lasers, water purification, boiler feeds, pressure booster pumps, and light hydraulic oils. not cheap at approx £180 but I would say they look very well built units for the money and should last a long time and comparing the price to similar units for sale in the US that one on ebay is 1/2 the price of an equivalent new one in the states.

Happy shopping
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