What is this TC? A new trend maybe? Good or bad?

[ciderman]

Hi there on the forum,

I brew a cider kit once a year at Christmas. The youngs kit I have clearing in a barrel in my workshop, smells great, and is my second attempt. It is about 5.5% and the taste last year was phenomenal. What does this so called TC taste like? I like to sit and savour a pint or two of what is really a very old and british traditional drink, Cider!! I rarely get ****** from Cider, I drink Magners thru the year at weekends. All this buying apple juice from here and there makes the revered pastime of brewing sound so sordid to me. :? Why can't we all be brewing some decent Cider and not so much what I call "GUT ROT". :thumb: : These are obviously my own opinions, but I really thought brewing was an art, and not just for **** heads. :shock:

 

[corby_brewer]

TC tastes just like cider, it called TURBO cider cus it dosnt take long to mate. The last batch i made only came out at about 5.2%.

 

[leondz]

Nah TC and good cider are miles apart, according to my tastebuds. If you're mainly an ale drinker, or just after a bit of fun, TC's all well and good, but when it comes to making real Class 1 cider, TC doesn't get off the starting blocks. Personally I'll drink both, TC has its place, and it's not at the top of the taste league - just the convenience one!

 

[evanvine]

I agree with both Ciderman and Leondz.
While TC is an all year long brew it hasn't got the finess and character of "real" cider.
As long as you watch your acid levels cider from fresh apples is far superior.

 

[Moley]

Check the small print below and go figure.
Next year I anticipate the TC value will be zero.

 

[evanvine]

Aleman mentioned putting grape tannin into TC "for a bit of bite", I must try that.

 

[Aleman]

Turbo cider is not head banger juice, it is a nice refreshing crisp drink . . . while not up to the quality of a proper cider, it is leagues better than the majority of what passes for cider in British pubs . . . Woodpecker, Strongbow, Bulmers, Magners and the like. I don't have access to the quantity and type sof apples to make a proper cider . . . or the equipment to correctly process them . . . and the three to 4 months to wait (Actually I can manage that bit :lol ) . . . but to have a nice crisp dry cider on tap throughout the year it is difficult to beat TC.


And with anything brewing related . . . the taste of the final product comes down to the quality of the ingredients used (tricky with TC) and sound brewing practice

 

[rickthebrew]

I drink mainly beer - homebrewed and shop bought when supplies are low or if i want to try an ale that i`d like to try and brew in the style of. I also brew quite a bit of wine from fruit, veg and juices which i also enjoy to drink as does my family and friends - i`m not a big cider drinker but have made TC (last one was 40pints) it just makes a change when you fancy it - it`s quick and easy and pretty much foolproof, so why not?

Variety is the spice of life!!

 

[sueelleker]

Sounds silly, but I found plain TC too 'appley' so now I add 1 L pear juice per gallon. I find it makes it a bit crisper.

 

[trunky]

TC is pretty **** really, I've experimented quite a bit with it and it fails because of the lack of tannin (adding tannin powder seems to achieve next to nothing) but more importantly it's far far too acid. You can partly address the acid level by forcing a malo-lactic fermentation but it's hardly worth it. It's passable with a dash of lemonade but as I like my cider dry it's not for me.

I've stopped making TC because it's such a poor imitaion of the real thing.

Proper cidermaking is fecking hard work - I've processed around 500Kg of cider apples this season into 330 litres of nectar - and learned a hell of alot along the way. I won't be touching a drop 'till late April and that's a nuisance even then that's got to last untill the following April when the next batch will be ready. Next year I hope to make much much more and I'll spend the next 10 months improving my processing methods so it's not such a strain. Also I 've got to get around to bottling at least 200 litres of what I have but that can wait a few more months!

 

[evanvine]

Trunky
I’m sorry but I have to totally disagree with you.
One thing TC isn’t is acid!
All the supermarket apple juices I have measured are around 0.35 to 0.45% H2SO4.
Cider is normally around 0.4 to 0.5%.
Cider I have made from various apples averages from 0.6 to 0.75% and has to be treated with precipitated chalk.
I agree that TC ferments out to very dry and does need the addition of an artificial sweetner, but what an easily made pleasant drink.
I’ve been making cider for as long as I have been making beer and wine (26 years) so I am not coming from inexperience.

 

[prolix]

Well having endured a can of strongbow last night. TC is a refreshing alternative. I make mine with a cup of tea, and sometimes a bramley or two. It works for me :

 

[CptnCrackoff]

I made a batch as a fill in between beers, I'm no cider drinker, have had very few ciders in the past, the most memorable were at the Beer festival in Harwich a couple of years ago.

For me, its cheap, easy, quick, and drinkable.

 

[trunky]

Trunky
I’m sorry but I have to totally disagree with you.
One thing TC isn’t is acid!
All the supermarket apple juices I have measured are around 0.35 to 0.45% H2SO4.
Cider is normally around 0.4 to 0.5%.
Cider I have made from various apples averages from 0.6 to 0.75% and has to be treated with precipitated chalk.
I agree that TC ferments out to very dry and does need the addition of an artificial sweetner, but what an easily made pleasant drink.
I’ve been making cider for as long as I have been making beer and wine (26 years) so I am not coming from inexperience.

I don't get your reference to sulphuric acid, the principle acid in apple juice is malic acid :wha:

Most cull apples, either eaters or cookers have a pH in the 2.8 to 3.2 range from what I've tested this year equally a range of juices I have tested have been in the 3-3.2 range. Most (craft) cidermakers aim for a pH of 3.6 or so achieved by blending the sharp (high acid) apples with the bitter (low acid, high tannin) apples - it's not that simple but you get my drift. The effect of that small pH difference is quite pronounced as the pH scale is logarithmic.

I have produced some quite acceptable TC's when I've induced a malo-lactic fermentation using an appropriate culture (Brouwland sell one), allthough the pH is unchanged it is more acceptable as lactic acid tastes less acid than malic acid.

 

[Aleman]

<Warning :ugeek: :ugeek: Alert>

pH is a totally inappropriate way of measuring the acidity of a must or 'juice', because as you mention it is a logarithmic scale. The correct approach is to titrate using a sodium hydroxide solution to neutralise the acid. . . then you can compare that to an acid of a known level either as % Sulphuric or as part per thousand (ppt) sulphuric . . . the sulphuric is a known standard reference.

The acidity of desert apples ranges from 1.0 to 6.5ppt. The problem exists that while diluting a juice by half will reduce the titratable acidity by half it may only change the pH by 0.1 units. The actual titratable acidity can be calculated from the pH, if you happen to know the dissociation constants of the acids (But we have a mixture in apples of tartrate and malate), and make the assumption that they are monobasic (oddly enough malate and tartrate are di basic) The formula is as follows for our imaginary monobasic weak acid HA

Titratable acidity = (M([H+]*[H+]))/K ppt of HA where

[H+] is Hydrogen ions concentration in grams-ions per litre
K is Dissociation of ionisation constant of the Acid HA
M = Molecular weight of the Acid HA

1.0ppt sulphuric is equivilant to 1.7ppt Malic, and ritchies sell a kit to determine the titrateable acidty of a juice . . . . once you know the TA it is a simple matter to adjust the TA by adding malic acid to the juice (Should it need it) . . . or to add chalk should it be needed to reduce it. funnily enough once you have an acceptable TA (around 3-3.4ppt sulphuric) you tend to find that the pH is around 3.4 to 3.6 . . .

. . . . . Of course traditional cidermakers rarely bother to do any of this, because they are using a blend of apples with a huge range of acidities, and their juice ends up where its needed anyway. We do not have that luxury and so should perhaps consider determining the TA of our juice and adjusting appropriately to make a more acceptable cider . . . not that the cider I make from juice is unacceptable

 

[evanvine]

Thanks AM, another concise argument.
I was going to reply, but you did it so much better.
Commercial wine makers titrate with Sodium Hydroxide, it is avery good guide and I have done it for "donkeys".

 

[trunky]

Fortunately I don't have to adulterate my cider with chemicals as the 6 acre cider apple orchard I have the use of was planted with an idealised mix of apples. I might measure the acidity in the way you discuss next season but as far as taste tells me pH 3.6 from a blend of the correct apples is far better than the taste of a pH 3.2 cider made from cull fruit. I suspect there are many other factors influencing taste but as TC has no further interest for me I won't be experimenting further with it.

 

[So-Kal]

TC is fun, it's quick - it allows us mere mortals to 'make cider' without having to go to all the expense that 'real cider' people have to - and, in my limited experience, as every bit as drinkable as any 'shop bought' stuff.

I think the same can be said for the 'from concentrate' wines - my newly brewed 'turbo wine' (Aldi White Grape + Morrisons 'Hi Juice' Blackcurrent - takes about a month from start to finish) is absolutely gorgeous - and it's every bit as good as any shop bought £5 a bottle Rose that I've ever tasted.......

It's a hobby - it's fun - or at least, that's why I do it............. :

 

[Duncs]

Fortunately I don't have to adulterate my cider with chemicals as the 6 acre cider apple orchard I have the use of was planted with an idealised mix of apples. I might measure the acidity in the way you discuss next season but as far as taste tells me pH 3.6 from a blend of the correct apples is far better than the taste of a pH 3.2 cider made from cull fruit. I suspect there are many other factors influencing taste but as TC has no further interest for me I won't be experimenting further with it.

I'm sure if we all had a spare 6 acre orchard we could all make some propper cider. Unfortunatly for me, I haven't been blessed with such a thing and have to make do with Tesco for my apple juice.

 

[evanvine]

To me home brewing and THBF are all about experimenting and sharing ideas/results.
I don't think being narrow minded, pompous and big headed have any place in them!