What if some people are genetically unable to perceive astringency,

[peterpiper]

Are some people just genetically unable (through polymorphisms in their TAS2R38 gene) to perceive astringency, from tannins in (their) beer, or do they just like it?
And is this why, ideas on best way to use Black Malt, vary so much, and why we get astringent commercial beers?
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When I started AG brewing, on borrowed equipment, my first few batches were amber ales (like Old Speckled Hen). But I kept thinking they were too bitter (though other tasters all reckoned they were great beers), so kept nudging the BU/GU down (to 0.56) without it helping much.

Now, with own equipment, & busy trying other beer styles. Many with much higher IBU (and higher BU/GU), now all taste fine (to me).
So I'm now wondering if astringincy, rather than bitterness, was the original issue. And those who liked the beers, just don't perceive astringency.

In first brews, on borrowed equipment (under guidance). I didn't adjust mash (or sparge) ph, and the sparge water came straight from a boiling kettle. Maybe that was the mistake.
Now thinking, I should revisit my early recipes.

https://rucore.libraries.rutgers.edu/rutgers-lib/67595/
"It is widely accepted that astringency is mainly caused when salivary proteins are precipitated by polyphenols in the mouth. Individual differences in the perception of astringency are well known but not well-understood. Sensitivity to the bitter compound, 6-n-propylthiouracil (PROP), controlled by polymorphisms in the TAS2R38 gene, has been observed to associate with differences in perception and liking for astringency".

https://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/
"Having had the fortune of tasting at least a hundred different samples of NEIPAs over the past few years, both commercial and homebrew, my biggest recurring complaint in some of the beers is a harsh finish. I think it’s best described as a vegetal bitterness that I would compare to taking a sample straight off of a tank loaded with dry hops. The astringency of the finish in some of these beers, likely caused by an excessive amount of polyphenols..."
"Study that examined unmalted oats (not flour) looked at the impact of replacing barley with oats and the impact on total polyphenol content in the beer from the grain. The authors found that as the oats increased as a percentage of the grist, the polyphenols decreased. Specifically, when 20% barley was swapped with unmalted oats there was a 30% reduction in polyphenols and when 40% barley was swapped with unmalted oats there was a 45% reduction in polyphenols.13Combining the two studies, you can see that brewing with oat flour could decrease the total protein in the beer and decrease the total polyphenols, hopefully leading to less permanent haze due to the binding of the two. For those sensitive to high polyphenol beers, perhaps large amounts of oats might also be a way to still dry hop heavily but with less of the harshness due to lower amount of polyphenols being contributed from the n malt".
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[Clint]

I'll go back to something with pictures...

 

[peebee]

@peterpiper: You'll not get an answer, because you're talking to a group of people predominantly unable, not to perceive, but simply understand, there's a big difference 'tween bitterness and astringency.

Not you! You've even linked an article discussing a (assumed) mechanism behind "astringency":

astringency is mainly caused when salivary proteins are precipitated by polyphenols in the mouth

Nearly everyone blanked out that statement when they read it.

Having said that, I haven't the answer to your question. I'd say "no"? You'd need a generic defect that interfered with your ability to "feel", And I imagine such a defect would have somewhat wider implications. But some people are definitely more (or less) sensitive to touch so would be more (or less) sensitive to astringency?

[EDIT: In the mouth, the sensation of astringency is like the flesh in your mouth is "creeping". Not really surprising, the flesh in your mouth really is "creeping"! On your chin a barber uses "astringents" to stem bleeding 'cos he nicked you while shaving. I don't think your body can change the physical reaction of protein to "astringents" (denatures them?) but how much you feel this happening may well be different from one person to the next.]

 

[Chippy_Tea]

You'll not get an answer, because you're talking to a group of people predominantly unable, not to perceive, but simply understand, there's a big difference 'tween bitterness and astringency.

How many members didn't read past 'tween bitterness and astringency. above

 

[Twostage]

@peterpiper: You'll not get an answer, because you're talking to a group of people predominantly unable, not to perceive, but simply understand, there's a big difference 'tween bitterness and astringency.

Not you! You've even linked an article discussing a (assumed) mechanism behind "astringency":



Nearly everyone blanked out that statement when they read it.

Having said that, I haven't the answer to your question. I'd say "no"? You'd need a generic defect that interfered with your ability to "feel", And I imagine such a defect would have somewhat wider implications. But some people are definitely more (or less) sensitive to touch so would be more (or less) sensitive to astringency?

[EDIT: In the mouth, the sensation of astringency is like the flesh in your mouth is "creeping". Not really surprising, the flesh in your mouth really is "creeping"! On your chin a barber uses "astringents" to stem bleeding 'cos he nicked you while shaving. I don't think your body can change the physical reaction of protein to "astringents" (denatures them?) but how much you feel this happening may well be different from one person to the next.]

So if I understand correctly unlike people who like sprouts (like me) don’t have a receptor for the off flavour chemical, the sensation of astringency is a chemical reaction which will always occur. Right ?

 

[MashBag]

@peterpiper: You'll not get an answer, because you're talking to a group of people predominantly unable, not to perceive, but simply understand, there's a big difference 'tween bitterness and astringency.

@DocAnna, are you offended too

 

[Sandimas]

My wife can't detect it, I've had a few batches over the years with mild astringency and I've given them her to drink as she said she can't detect it. I would have chucked them down the drain.

I've got a mate who occasionally brews and always says his brews are too bitter and yeasty, whereas they taste fine to me. I guess we've all got slightly different tastes.

 

[peebee]

So if I understand correctly unlike people who like sprouts (like me) don’t have a receptor for the off flavour chemical, the sensation of astringency is a chemical reaction which will always occur. Right ?

That pretty much covers it.

I rant because I'm bored of people going on about the taste of "astringency" when it isn't a "taste". I can't help ranting when I see the word "astringent", even when it's mentioned in a post that is understanding "astringency" - but note I'd also answered the question to the best of my ability (but made it clear it was an opinion, not a fact, being shared).

Bitter taste and the sensation of astringency often occur together, hence the confusion? It's easier to understand if you get examples of astringency without the masking flavour of bitterness. I reckon eating a sloe should do that (they are not bitter ... flippin' astringent though!). Of beer, I think the best illustration I had was an amber ale. A real Amber ale containing Amber Malt. No darkly roasted grains to confuse with. Amber malt isn't "bitter". But use too much and it is hellish astringent!

"Sprouts" aren't astringent either, but as you say, some people don't like the taste, and they did often used to taste bitter too; but that taste is being successfully bred out of them.



Now you've got the jist, do answer @peterpiper's query, he's been waiting since Saturday for people to notice his question.