water treatment

[bomberns127]

i have been reading on the forum that people are getting queries?( is this the right description?) with water, i have read hundreds of threads on AG as well as kits and hardly anybody treats the water they use, if they do they dont post it, according to the dave lines 'bible' shouldnt all water be treated first? before i brew i add to the mash calcium chloride, gypsum. and epsom salts, depending on what im brewing, am i doing it wrong? my old man always treats his water before he brews and has done for over 40 years, i know getting water reports and acting on them is confusing unless you are a biochemist of some sorts, but since its the major component in what we all do can someone give a rough guide in laymans terms as to the best way to tackle it whether it be kit, extract or AG?

(my god i now feel like a schoolteacher! lmao i think i had better lie down)

 

[leedsbrew]

I think you'll find that alot of people on here do treat their water! Your right though not many post about it! I tent not to add it to my brewday threads, not sure why though CTTAI!?

Have you used the excellent water treatment calculator here on THBF? I use it for every brew!

:thumb:

 

[snail59]

This crops up time and time again. I'm still working on technique and water treatment is still on the back seat for me. I do add a little Gypsum to my grain bill and C.R.S to my water I draw off a 5 gallon FV of water the night before add a crushed Campden Tablet and a little C.R.S then allow to stand over night. For me my far from perfect Brewing Technique has more of an effect on my Beer's than lack of water treatment. The biggest improvement in beer quality for me has been controlling the fermentation temp. Next step will be getting better control of the Mash temp then I will move on to getting a better more controlled sparge then I will move on to water treatment. What im doing may be wrong and I would gladly appreciate anyone pointing me in another direction if I am

 

[luckyeddie]

My water treatment at the moment is as follows.....

1 crushed Campden tablet in my HLT - and often I forget to do that.

That's it.

I may start experimenting with making adjustments to mash pH dependent upon the grainbill later this year.

 

[Aleman]

hardly anybody treats the water they use, if they do they dont post it

What you mean like This post Where not only do I say what I am adding . . . I actually explain the reasons for it

i know getting water reports and acting on them is confusing unless you are a biochemist of some sorts, but since its the major component in what we all do can someone give a rough guide in laymans terms as to the best way to tackle it whether it be kit, extract or AG?

I think there are a couple of flaws.

Firstly the accuracy of any water report you get from a water company is questionable, plus it often leaves things out, and hides the single most important brewing criteria (Alkalinity) behind other measurements, if it includes it at all.

Secondly the water source your water comes from can change from day to day, and in my case when it does there is a massive difference in the water make-up between reservoir and borehole . . .if you don't take that into account any water treatment you do is more akin to witchcraft than science

Thirdly, A lot of the authors don't really understand the science involved in water chemistry, Dave Line, Graham Wheeler, John Palmer, Greg Noonan et al all fall into this trap and make water treatment much more complex than it needs to be. Plus they all seem to imply that you need to match the water profile for the beer you are brewing (Murphys of Nottingham do this as well) . . . but fail to take into account the water you may be starting with (Murphys offer a water analysis service - but that doesn't take into account that tomorrow you water may come from a different source) . . . and present a "One Size Fits All" approach . . .Which is fine if you want a consistent level of mediocrity . . .but if you really want to lift you beer above the average then you really have to make an attempt to understand the logic and reasons behind water treatment (Which I have posted on here ad nauseam).

My water treatment approach is as follows

On the day of brewing measure the alkalinity (bicarbonate ions concentration), and the calcium ion level of the liquor you are going to brew with. (Salifert sell kits to do this which are cheap and simple to use)

Using an appropriate acid (hydrochloric, sulphuric or Carbonate reducing solution from Murphy's, a blend of hydrochloric and sulphuric acids), adjust the alkalinity down to 30ppm for pale beers . . . . and up to 125ppm for dark beers. For dark beers I may need to add sodium bicarbonate to raise the alkalinity as my water is 'normally' low in bicarbonate. Bicarbonate is the thing that prevents the mash pH falling to the right range, so reducing it to a low level for the beer style you are brewing is important.

Increase the calcium level to at least 150ppm (calcium is important in getting the mash pH in the right range, along with hot break formation, yeast fermentation and flocculation etc). The salt you use for this (or blends of salts) depends again on the style you are brewing. For hoppy beers you need to think about raising sulphate so would look at calcium sulphate (and possibly using sulphuric acid to reduce the alkalinity), for malty beers you need to look at increasing chloride so would consider using calcium chloride (along with hydrochloric acid for alkalinity reduction). . . . You might need to consider a blend of the two salts as not only is the actual level of the sulphate and chloride ions important . . . the ratio between them is as well.

Finally I add an extra 5ppm of magnesium in the form of magnesium sulphate . . . which again alters the sulphate levels but as it ins in the order of 1.5g in 100L of liquor the level is pretty low.

Sounds complex?? probably but it follows these three simple rules

1) reduce the alkalinity to a level appropriate for the beer style being brewed
2) adjust the calcium level to a minimum of 150ppm
3) adjust the levels of sulphate and chloride depending on the style of beer being brewed.

Water treatment does not make a massive difference to the quality of beer being brewed, indeed there are far more important things that affect beer quality in a major way (yeast quality and fermentation temperature control for example) . . . but once you have cracked the brewing process and are making consistently good beer, then water treatment will allow you to make good beers 'shine'.

Water treatment is only really applicable to all grain brewing, while some of it does apply to extract brewing (sulphate/chloride levels and ratios for example), and kit brewing is best done with low mineral content water as all the minerals used for mashing and boiling have been concentrated into the extract.

 

[prolix]

water treatment is a tricky one, most I assume use campden tablets to remove the chlorine (chloroamines).

I test my water before brewing but not every brew, only when there has been heavy rain or little rain as the rest of the time it has shown to be too similar to matter and I am too lazy.

I knock my alkilinity back to 30 for bitters and pale ales and 110 for my porter with CRS

I add sodium chloride for porter, usually do not bother with any other additions as calcium is high and sulphates and chlorides are upped by the CRS.

May try some magnesium in my pales.

Anyone know if you can buy sulphuric and hyrdochloric acids at food grade in small quantities? (to create personalized CRS)

 

[Russell]

A lot of the authors don't really understand the science involved in water chemistry, Dave Line, Graham Wheeler, John Palmer, Greg Noonan et al all fall into this trap and make water treatment much more complex than it needs to be.

Now this smacks of someone who is writing a book. There is often a prelude to someone writing a book, inasmuch as they spend a lot of time attacking previous authors in the false belief that it will enhance their own status. Now Aleman has been pretty efficient here; he as managed 'dis' every well-respected author in one sentence. One hopes that his book will be just as efficient, and we all wait with bated breath on his prophecies on water treatment. Apparently everybody eles has got it wrong.

 

[battwave]

A few people have mentioned Campden to treat Chlorine (Chloramine). This is the top of my list for every brew.

Most of the other additions improve quality, Campden can prevent your efforts turning to TCP :sick:

 

[snail59]

A lot of the authors don't really understand the science involved in water chemistry, Dave Line, Graham Wheeler, John Palmer, Greg Noonan et al all fall into this trap and make water treatment much more complex than it needs to be.

Now this smacks of someone who is writing a book. There is often a prelude to someone writing a book, inasmuch as they spend a lot of time attacking previous authors in the false belief that it will enhance their own status. Now Aleman has been pretty efficient here; he as managed 'dis' every well-respected author in one sentence. One hopes that his book will be just as efficient, and we all wait with bated breath on his prophecies on water treatment. Apparently everybody eles has got it wrong.

As far as I am aware Aleman is not writing a book (if he is though I would be in line to buy it). What he is though is a mine of information that many members on this forum have come to trust and respect. I think as this was your first post it would be a little hard to Judge a members contributions as harshly as you have. Just my opinion and as you have shown we all have them

 

[Good Ed]

Now this smacks of someone who is writing a book. There is often a prelude to someone writing a book, inasmuch as they spend a lot of time attacking previous authors in the false belief that it will enhance their own status. Now Aleman has been pretty efficient here; he as managed 'dis' every well-respected author in one sentence. One hopes that his book will be just as efficient, and we all wait with bated breath on his prophecies on water treatment. Apparently everybody eles has got it wrong.

As a freshman poster I think you are being quite unfair here. Aleman has a vast source of knowledge on brewing that he is willing to share with everyone, and yes I wish he would write a book. But I think what he was saying was that water treatment is a matter of understanding the chemistry of it all, and that he is probably more qualified than the other authors in this regard. Also in previous posts he has made it very clear that sound brewing techniques are more important than water treatment.

So maybe, Russell, a little more reading of posts on this forum and a little less of personal attacks would be in order. Happy brewing :

 

[Rparkera]

I'd say that Aleman has more than written a book full of excellent stuff on this site and elsewhere too - always grateful for the help and inspiration, Effin Brewery site too.

Take a look at the still new water treatment calculator by Eskimo Bob - that's what helped me to get to terms with treating water in bite size chunks. I agree that the giants of homebrew have explained things well enough in their various books. But i found them heavy going to digest and use. EB's guide and calculator gave me something to get going with - one day I'll try to figure it out the JP way!

 

[Aleman]

Now this smacks of someone who is writing a book. There is often a prelude to someone writing a book, inasmuch as they spend a lot of time attacking previous authors in the false belief that it will enhance their own status. Now Aleman has been pretty efficient here; he as managed 'dis' every well-respected author in one sentence.

Which was not my intention at all, they have not so much as got it wrong, just made it much more complicated than it really needs to be, in addition they do have their own 'bees' that they do try and push, which does not necessarily apply to all beer styles and liquors

Funnily enough one of the best treatise on water treatment is in the book Brewing by Lewis and Young (added to the second edition the first doesn't have it) which is really a Brewing Science Degree level text book. You would expect that to be highly technical . . . not at all . . . really simple a discussion of alkalinity and its effects, a discussion of calcium and its effects and a discussion of sulphate and chloride and the effects they have on beer. There really is no need to complicate things much more than that . . . Beyond the empirical exercise of trying to recreate a water profile from an unpublished (and often unbalanced) water profile for a region (which may or may not be the water the brewery actually brews with). Indeed many of the beer factories start with deionised liquor and add appropriate salts to create a consistent liquor profile specific for each beer they brew. How else are they able to brew the same beer in multiple locations throughout the world?

As for writing a book . . . There's a thought :hmm: . . . I just don't have the discipline to sit down and do so . . . and I admire those that are capable of doing so.

 

[Russell]

one day I'll try to figure it out the JP way!

Aleman was right about that particular author. His water treatment stuff is complicated and it appears to be based upon flimsy science. Even JP seems to be distancing himself from the JP way, if you read between the lines of what he says in some of his podcasts.

It was the suggestion that none of those authors, or anybody else for that matter, understands the science of water chemistry which sparked me off - after an awfully long time lurking.

Naw! A book is on the way - trust me! I've seen it before.

 

[shearclass]

A lot of the authors don't really understand the science involved in water chemistry, Dave Line, Graham Wheeler, John Palmer, Greg Noonan et al all fall into this trap and make water treatment much more complex than it needs to be.

Now this smacks of someone who is writing a book. There is often a prelude to someone writing a book, inasmuch as they spend a lot of time attacking previous authors in the false belief that it will enhance their own status. Now Aleman has been pretty efficient here; he as managed 'dis' every well-respected author in one sentence. One hopes that his book will be just as efficient, and we all wait with bated breath on his prophecies on water treatment. Apparently everybody eles has got it wrong.

Russel, which are you: Line, Wheeler, Palmer, or Noonan? :grin:


Aleman, i'll pre order your book, please write one!

 

[Aleman]

It was the suggestion that none of those authors, or anybody else for that matter, understands the science of water chemistry which sparked me off

Probably what I said was not really what I wanted to say. Many of the water chapters appear to be simple rehashes of other work, with enough of a personal twist to make it 'original' (an no, I am not accusing anyone of plagiarism, each is an original approach). Yet it doesn't actually really apply it to brewing. Graham certainly understands the water chemistry (and I've read his water chapter in the Advanced Brewing book that didn't get published), but seems to me to get caught up in the problems of balancing a liquor, and reducing alkalinity through boiling et al.

The Lewis and Young water chapter looks at it from the brewing approach rather than the chemistry approach, which made it stand out as blindingly obvious when I read that.

Edit: And I'm finding it difficult writing the occasional article for Brewers Contact . . . so don't hold your breath for the book

 

[luckyeddie]

I find it quite strange that someone should join a forum, wait TWO YEARS before posting then come out fighting with both barrels aimed at a highly trusted and well-respected poster over a matter of opinion.

There are only two alternatives that immediately spring to mind:

a) Russell is a cock
b) Russell is one of the authors Aleman mentioned

My vote's for 'b)'

 

[robsan77]

Now this smacks of someone who is writing a book. There is often a prelude to someone writing a book, inasmuch as they spend a lot of time attacking previous authors in the false belief that it will enhance their own status. Now Aleman has been pretty efficient here; he as managed 'dis' every well-respected author in one sentence. One hopes that his book will be just as efficient, and we all wait with bated breath on his prophecies on water treatment. Apparently everybody eles has got it wrong.

As a freshman poster I think you are being quite unfair here. Aleman has a vast source of knowledge on brewing that he is willing to share with everyone, and yes I wish he would write a book. But I think what he was saying was that water treatment is a matter of understanding the chemistry of it all, and that he is probably more qualified than the other authors in this regard. Also in previous posts he has made it very clear that sound brewing techniques are more important than water treatment.

So maybe, Russell, a little more reading of posts on this forum and a little less of personal attacks would be in order. Happy brewing :

The trouble with the internet is that anyone can create a new profile and make an anonymous post if they have something controvertial to say. Just something to think about.

 

[Wez]

I think that Aleman's reply is well considered and nicely put, and we thank him for that, many people may have taken the bait which would have done no good at all.

I dont think that it's healthy to openly discuss our opinions of other members publicly, although I can understand why there may be some negative feeling.

Final note - constructive contribution to the forum is welcome, personal attacks are not and i'd rather not have to lock a thread.

 

[snail59]

There are only two alternatives that immediately spring to mind:

a) Russell is a cock
b) Russell is one of the authors Aleman mentioned

My vote's for 'b)'

Final note - constructive contribution to the forum is welcome, personal attacks are not and i'd rather not have to lock a thread.

So I take it that you would sooner I did not say my vote would be for A & B then Wez. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Muddy Funker]

A lot of the authors don't really understand the science involved in water chemistry, Dave Line, Graham Wheeler, John Palmer, Greg Noonan et al all fall into this trap and make water treatment much more complex than it needs to be.

Now this smacks of someone who is writing a book. There is often a prelude to someone writing a book, inasmuch as they spend a lot of time attacking previous authors in the false belief that it will enhance their own status. Now Aleman has been pretty efficient here; he as managed 'dis' every well-respected author in one sentence. One hopes that his book will be just as efficient, and we all wait with bated breath on his prophecies on water treatment. Apparently everybody eles has got it wrong.

The bottom line here is that you should probably listen to what Aleman says.

He consistantly helps out forum members and shares his wealth of knowledge which he doesn't need to do.

But I guess you have him all worked out :hmm: