Verdant Putty

[Braindead]

Will do.
Mates 2 got spares if intones interested.
Obvs you'll have to sort postage out

 

[aaronm13]

Will do.
Mates 2 got spares if intones interested.
Obvs you'll have to sort postage out

I'm definitely interested if they're ok with posting to Ireland. All cost's will be gladly covered.

 

[Mrhandsome]

Psst....

Beer Guerrilla are selling Putty if anyone is interested.

 

[HopHead420]

Since Putty season is almost upon us I decided to bump this thread to see if there has been any updates and successes on brewing this incredible beer.....

I haven't ever actually tried to brew it, but I'm tempted to give it a go since I have the hops and yeast on hand (as well as a few cans of Putty). I posted a first draft of a clone recipe years back in the thread, and since then have been fortunate enough to speak to James at Verdant on the investor discord channel. I haven't asked specifically about Putty, but what I will say is to take all the processes, and the water profile from the Sharks recipe they released, and apply that to cloning putty - most significantly this means:

No dry hop during fermentation at all, ferment out the beer fully, then soft crash to around 10C, then dry hop (ideally with agitation, but you must keep Oxygen ingress at bay).

I'll try to post an updated 'clone' with all I have learnt from speaking with him and brewing this style for the last couple of years, though my processes do diverge from theirs (I do no longer dry hop during fermentation, though).

 

[aaronm13]

I haven't ever actually tried to brew it, but I'm tempted to give it a go since I have the hops and yeast on hand (as well as a few cans of Putty). I posted a first draft of a clone recipe years back in the thread, and since then have been fortunate enough to speak to James at Verdant on the investor discord channel. I haven't asked specifically about Putty, but what I will say is to take all the processes, and the water profile from the Sharks recipe they released, and apply that to cloning putty - most significantly this means:

No dry hop during fermentation at all, ferment out the beer fully, then soft crash to around 10C, then dry hop (ideally with agitation, but you must keep Oxygen ingress at bay).

I'll try to post an updated 'clone' with all I have learnt from speaking with him and brewing this style for the last couple of years, though my processes do diverge from theirs (I do no longer dry hop during fermentation, though).

That's what I pretty much based my recipe around with the exception of higher level of wheat based on the release blurb from this years Putty. I'd say that grain bill is pretty close along with using the water profile of "Sharks"

Very interested in your take on things as the hopping rates still have me thinking. Have all the ingredients myself so ready to brew really soon. I abandoned the hopping at active fermentation myself a while ago but went back to it on my last brew and I do think it adds something. Would only use a very small amount. I know James said he doesn't bother with this step but everyone's set up and process is widely different.

 

[stubrewworx]

Can get it here

 

[BlackRegent]

I haven't ever actually tried to brew it, but I'm tempted to give it a go since I have the hops and yeast on hand (as well as a few cans of Putty). I posted a first draft of a clone recipe years back in the thread, and since then have been fortunate enough to speak to James at Verdant on the investor discord channel. I haven't asked specifically about Putty, but what I will say is to take all the processes, and the water profile from the Sharks recipe they released, and apply that to cloning putty - most significantly this means:

No dry hop during fermentation at all, ferment out the beer fully, then soft crash to around 10C, then dry hop (ideally with agitation, but you must keep Oxygen ingress at bay).

I'll try to post an updated 'clone' with all I have learnt from speaking with him and brewing this style for the last couple of years, though my processes do diverge from theirs (I do no longer dry hop during fermentation, though).

Interesting that they snub the whole biotransformation thing entirely

 

[HopHead420]

Interesting that they snub the whole biotransformation thing entirely

Honestly I don't think any brewery who is considered amongst the very best in the style is using dry hops during fermentation any more. The whole biotransformation thing has ended up being a distraction from what is actually the core feature of most hazy IPAs: protein-polyphenol binding as a result of high protein grists, very high dry hopping rates, and yeast that degrade fewer soluble proteins during fermentation.

Dry hopping during fermentation just ends up causing additional attenuation due to hop creep, and additional time in tank to get to negative VDK as a result. I did it for ages myself, but when I finally did a side by side there was no question that the beer without dry hops during fermentation (and dry hopped off the yeast after a crash) was better in every way. Less muddled, more aromatic, fuller in body and mouthfeel, better head retention. It was even hazier.

As for biotransformation - it certainly happens with what the whirlpool hops leave behind.

 

[BlackRegent]

@HopHead420
This is all good and useful stuff. Thanks. Not least because I am doing an oat cream NEIPA at the weekend!

Can I pick your brain on one other thing? If your experience tells you that there is no point in dry hopping during fermentation, is there any point in doing a staged dry hop, or is it better to do one massive dry hop once fermentation is complete?

 

[HopHead420]

@HopHead420
This is all good and useful stuff. Thanks. Not least because I am doing an oat cream NEIPA at the weekend!

Can I pick your brain on one other thing? If your experience tells you that there is no point in dry hopping during fermentation, is there any point in doing a staged dry hop, or is it better to do one massive dry hop once fermentation is complete?

No problem, happy to talk about this stuff, as it has been an active obsession for years now.

I don't personally use a staged dry hopping method, but that is partially because I do an agitated (manually) dry hop. I ferment in a keg with a caskwidge floating dip tube, then cold crash the beer for 24 hours down to around 4C, then transfer the beer off the yeast and trub into a second keg (purged via the blow-off from the initial fermentation) which also has a caskwidge floating dip tube in it. Once the beer is transferred I open up the keg with the beer in, drop all my dry hops in, re-seal, and purge the headspace with 40psi about ten times (this is essential). After that I keep it cold and agitate the keg (vigorous swirling) daily until the dry hop character has saturated.

I think a multi-stage dry hop could be beneficial if you can't agitate, however I would caution that Oxygen is a total murderer of these beers. You could consider adding 10ppm of Sodium Metabisulfite along with 20ppm of Ascorbic Acid when dry hopping, which will help scavenge any Oxygen. If you do this it is essential you use very precise scales, as Metabisulfite will ruin your beer (big eggy farts) if it ends up above taste threshold, which doesn't take much.

Edit: I'd also never dry hop warm ever again. Hop creep is real and will leave your beer in buttery limbo. Cold dry hopping works extremely well, especially if you can agitate.

 

[BlackRegent]

No problem, happy to talk about this stuff, as it has been an active obsession for years now.

In that case I'll keep the conversation going!

I'm set up to close transfer from the FV into the keg and from keg to keg. I also have floating dip tubes so what you describe is possible.

Two questions:

- When dry hopping do you put the hops in anything or do you rely on cold crashing and the floating dip tube to separate out the hop matter when packaging?

- When transferring to the second keg, is there a reason you put the beer in first and the hops second. If you put the hops in first and purge the keg with them in situ, you could then transfer the beer on top and avoid the need to open the keg or to purge again.

 

[aaronm13]

No problem, happy to talk about this stuff, as it has been an active obsession for years now.

I don't personally use a staged dry hopping method, but that is partially because I do an agitated (manually) dry hop. I ferment in a keg with a caskwidge floating dip tube, then cold crash the beer for 24 hours down to around 4C, then transfer the beer off the yeast and trub into a second keg (purged via the blow-off from the initial fermentation) which also has a caskwidge floating dip tube in it. Once the beer is transferred I open up the keg with the beer in, drop all my dry hops in, re-seal, and purge the headspace with 40psi about ten times (this is essential). After that I keep it cold and agitate the keg (vigorous swirling) daily until the dry hop character has saturated.

I think a multi-stage dry hop could be beneficial if you can't agitate, however I would caution that Oxygen is a total murderer of these beers. You could consider adding 10ppm of Sodium Metabisulfite along with 20ppm of Ascorbic Acid when dry hopping, which will help scavenge any Oxygen. If you do this it is essential you use very precise scales, as Metabisulfite will ruin your beer (big eggy farts) if it ends up above taste threshold, which doesn't take much.

Edit: I'd also never dry hop warm ever again. Hop creep is real and will leave your beer in buttery limbo. Cold dry hopping works extremely well, especially if you can agitate.

Out of curiosity what would your average dry hop amount be for a DIPA? I'm averaging around 450g or 22g-25g/L but am getting little hop flavor lately, just a real mess of flavors and not all good flavors either. Going off a conversation on Homebrew talk some guy reckons hopping at these levels is not always a good thing. You get a lot more oils but also a lot of the vegetable matter which can lead to unpleasant flavors which is kind of what I'm experiencing. He reckons a DIPA should max out at around 240g-270g on a standard batch.

On my last brew a CItra, Mosaic, Bru-1 dipa with about 480g of dry hops. I went back to doing a dry hop during fermentation with around 120g. Now I did get hop creep but when I tasted the sample while doing a closed transfer to a dry hop keg it was full of flavor. I had 180g in the dry hop keg and I really should have taken a sample after the second dry hop but I went ahead and added another 180g as planned. It's in the keg 2 weeks now and is just unpleasant and undrinkable.

 

[HopHead420]

- When dry hopping do you put the hops in anything or do you rely on cold crashing and the floating dip tube to separate out the hop matter when packaging?

- When transferring to the second keg, is there a reason you put the beer in first and the hops second. If you put the hops in first and purge the keg with them in situ, you could then transfer the beer on top and avoid the need to open the keg or to purge again.

I just rely on the hops dropping due to the cold temperatures, and the floating dip tube which has a mesh filter built in. Works solidly, occasionally get a little particulate in my glass, but nothing that is perceptible.
I purge my second keg throughout fermentation with the blow off from the ferment, as purging an empty keg via gas bottle purges alone is insanely wasteful and also pretty ineffective. That being the case I have always been concerned that leaving the dry hops in a warm keg for several days, with gas running over them and out of the keg, will strip aroma before the hops ever get to the beer. It's just a theory, though, and is on my list of things to try.

Out of curiosity what would your average dry hop amount be for a DIPA? I'm averaging around 450g or 22g-25g/L but am getting little hop flavor lately, just a real mess of flavors and not all good flavors either. Going off a conversation on Homebrew talk some guy reckons hopping at these levels is not always a good thing. You get a lot more oils but also a lot of the vegetable matter which can lead to unpleasant flavors which is kind of what I'm experiencing. He reckons a DIPA should max out at around 240g-270g on a standard batch.

It depends on the hop. I would never go above about 8g/L of Galaxy or Vic Secret. They have so much harsh polyphenol content that they end up creating a very green, astringent and vegetal character in the mouth that I personally find unpleasant. Something like Citra I could happily take as far as 20g/L or so in a DIPA, maybe a bit more. Citra is an incredibly smooth hop and I have never had a Citra only dry hopped beer come off as having that vegetal character.

As a general rule I probably wouldn't go above 22g/L of dry hops in any beer, and I like 15g/L a lot regardless of ABV. My dry hopping strategy is very efficient, though, so YMMV.

Edit: As an example of where over dry hopping goes wrong, this beer might have been a collaboration between three of the best brewers of the style in the world, but it was an awful, awful, awful mess of a beer. It had no head retention, was incredibly bitter in a very harsh way, had a confused aroma of grass trimmings, and a taste that followed. If I recall correctly it was dry hopped at 32g/L.

 

[aaronm13]

It depends on the hop. I would never go above about 8g/L of Galaxy or Vic Secret. They have so much harsh polyphenol content that they end up creating a very green, astringent and vegetal character in the mouth that I personally find unpleasant. Something like Citra I could happily take as far as 20g/L or so in a DIPA, maybe a bit more. Citra is an incredibly smooth hop and I have never had a Citra only dry hopped beer come off as having that vegetal character.

As a general rule I probably wouldn't go above 22g/L of dry hops in any beer, and I like 15g/L a lot regardless of ABV. My dry hopping strategy is very efficient, though, so YMMV.

Edit: As an example of where over dry hopping goes wrong, this beer might have been a collaboration between three of the best brewers of the style in the world, but it was an awful, awful, awful mess of a beer. It had no head retention, was incredibly bitter in a very harsh way, had a confused aroma of grass trimmings, and a taste that followed. If I recall correctly it was dry hopped at 32g/L.

Your 15g/L pretty much lines up with the guy on Homebrew talk. It's what Verdant listed on their Even Sharks recipe too. I used to dry hop very successfully with the 22-25g/L rate, my BJCP judge friend said my last successful one was hands down commercial standard but around the last 5 brews have had this muted, muddy flavor. One friend said if he didn't know my hopping levels he'd swear there was hardly any hops in the beer.

I'm going to experiment with my Putty recipe and dial back the dry hops to around the 15g/L. If I don't like the results I can always add more. How's your Putty recipe coming along? Would love to see your ideas for the dry hopping rates.

 

[HopHead420]

Your 15g/L pretty much lines up with the guy on Homebrew talk. It's what Verdant listed on their Even Sharks recipe too. I used to dry hop very successfully with the 22-25g/L rate, my BJCP judge friend said my last successful one was hands down commercial standard but around the last 5 brews have had this muted, muddy flavor. One friend said if he didn't know my hopping levels he'd swear there was hardly any hops in the beer.

I'm going to experiment with my Putty recipe and dial back the dry hops to around the 15g/L. If I don't like the results I can always add more. How's your Putty recipe coming along? Would love to see your ideas for the dry hopping rates.

In terms of dry hopping for a Putty clone, and given what Verdant have said about the dry hop (equal parts Mosaic and Galaxy, bit less Azacca) I would go with 8g/L Galaxy, 8g/L Mosaic, 6g/L Azacca. I haven't got around to creating an updated recipe yet, will try to this weekend. They say they use equal parts Mosaic, Azacca and Galaxy on the hot side...I...have enormous reservations about using Galaxy on the hot side, personally.

 

[aaronm13]

In terms of dry hopping for a Putty clone, and given what Verdant have said about the dry hop (equal parts Mosaic and Galaxy, bit less Azacca) I would go with 8g/L Galaxy, 8g/L Mosaic, 6g/L Azacca. I haven't got around to creating an updated recipe yet, will try to this weekend. They say they use equal parts Mosaic, Azacca and Galaxy on the hot side...I...have enormous reservations about using Galaxy on the hot side, personally.

Yes, Galaxy on the hot side is puzzling and a concern for me. just done some quick calculation there based on a20L batch and have gone with Azzaca 5g/L, Mosaic and Galaxy 7g/L for an example
Galaxy 140g
Mosaic 140g (I'm using Lupomax so 25% less dosage is 106g)
Azacca 100g

50g of each in a whirlpool at 75 degrees for 30 minutes. Not sure about Galaxy here though.

 

[Joetp]

Psst....

Beer Guerrilla are selling Putty if anyone is interested.

Ordered a selection. My first time trying Verdant. Hope it lives up to the hype!

 

[Joetp]

I managed to get a decent selection of Verdant and other beers. Just had one of the Putty's. My god. The hop levels are nuts! Very nice beer, that's for sure.

You guys talking above about recipes - do let me know how you get on with the clone. Super intrigued to see if this is doable at home. Expensive hopping rates, but I'm sure it'll be worth it if you pull it off! My haul from Beer Guerilla below. Cheers!

 

[BlackRegent]

I think it's definitely possible. I've got a NEIPA fermenting now which will have a 450g total hop load (c 22.5g/l and a 15g/l dry hop). Won't be the same as Putty as it's an oat cream neipa that used lactose so it will have more of a creamy finish and more residual sweetness (hopefully) but I'm expecting it to have a similar hop impact.

I'm also still refining my Putty clone recipe using some of the intel in here and some of the information published by Verdant. I've not brewed it yet but I'll put the recipe up if it turns out well.

 

[Kye]

I think it's definitely possible. I've got a NEIPA fermenting now which will have a 450g total hop load (c 22.5g/l and a 15g/l dry hop). Won't be the same as Putty as it's an oat cream neipa that used lactose so it will have more of a creamy finish and more residual sweetness (hopefully) but I'm expecting it to have a similar hop impact.

I'm also still refining my Putty clone recipe using some of the intel in here and some of the information published by Verdant. I've not brewed it yet but I'll put the recipe up if it turns out well.

How did the NEIPA turn out, and was it the one from Gash on Homebrew Network? I'm planning to brew the 'Even Sharks Need Water' recipe from Verdant next week, can't wait. Please do post the Putty recipe if it works. I had a few from Verdant in Jan, an IPA mix, a DIPA mix, and a 6 pack of Putty, all excellent and all subtly different. I thought the Don't Tell Gus and Maybe One more PSI DIPA's were excellent, and the Random Rules slightly weaker (still 6.5%) one of the best of the lot, although it was also the first one I tried so possibly elevated due to that!