Universal basic income

[simon12]

Before you read I did the maths as I was going and I didn't realise how much I couldn't get it to work so please ignore the thread if you want but since I typed it thought i'd post anyway.

Universal basic income seems to be a popular concept with many at the moment, i'm not sure but here's my proposal for how it could work:
Everyone in the UK that has citizenship man, women or child (children paid to there legal guardian until appropriate age) gets £1000 per month tax free regardless of anything, this replaces all benefits (maybe people who cannot work long term get a bit more), there is no tax free income above this and the higher rate is lowered by this amount.
The numbers:
The cost of this is around £780 billion which is almost the same figure as the current total government income.
-£60 Billion saved in current welfare spending
-£150 Billion approx. they get back in tax due to no tax free allowance and lower high rate.
-£90 Billion approx saved in state pension
leaving a £480 Billion shortfall some of this may be cancelled out my many people spending more resulting in higher tax revenues in extra VAT and money moving faster through the economy i'm guesstimating at best £180 billion still leaving a £300 billion shortfall. Raising income tax almost however its done can't make much of a dent in this and even doubling VAT would only raise £120 billion.
Any thoughts suggestions?

 

[MyQul]

Regardless of your exact numbers, how popular it might be, and even if was workable. It would never happen because, debt, work and money are a way to control people. Somthing no government in the world would give up

 

[BeerCat]

Sounds like another way to encourage dependency on the state. Imagine if the UK were the first to start this.

 

[simon12]

Sounds like another way to encourage dependency on the state. Imagine if the UK were the first to start this.

1 of the main advantages of it is it encourages people to work as they keep all the money without it messing up there benefits claim. They are not left in a situation were they consider if I work I will only be £100 a month better off.

 

[simon12]

Regardless of your exact numbers, how popular it might be, and even if was workable. It would never happen because, debt, work and money are a way to control people. Somthing no government in the world would give up

This sounds interesting, would you mind elaborating.

 

[MyQul]

Sounds like another way to encourage dependency on the state. Imagine if the UK were the first to start this.

I've never understood this phrase, 'dependancy on the state'as if it's a bad thing. We all depend on the state. We wouldn't be able to drive along roads, go to school (well I suppose you could home school), use the health service, etc, etc. So we all depend on the state in some way or other

 

[BeerCat]

The petrol suppliers could pay to maintain our roads. They are the ones profiting from it.

 

[Gunge]

I've never understood this phrase, 'dependancy on the state'as if it's a bad thing. We all depend on the state. We wouldn't be able to drive along roads, go to school (well I suppose you could home school), use the health service, etc, etc. So we all depend on the state in some way or other

Some of us pay towards 'the state' that we depend upon. Some just take what they can. Um, think we've been here before!

 

[aamcle]

Right so now we have a larger, much larger, number of people with some money but nothing to do all day. Yes I know there will be the motivated few but mostly not, so what are they going to do with their time? Sex n Drugs n Rock and Role? Think about it!

The only way of it working would be some sort of workfare were some time commitment was require in return for the wonga.


aamcle

 

[Bigcol49]

. . . debt, work and money are a way to control people. Somthing no government in the world would give up

Hi!
"Austerity" is a political tool; numerous economists have declared that it isn't working, yet the Government keep on turning the screw.
The less money people have, the less they can spend. If less money is being spent the economy continues to stagnate.

 

[MyQul]

This sounds interesting, would you mind elaborating.

Well, what did you do this morning? Unless it was your day off you probably went to work and unless you love going to work, it was because you had to not because you wanted to. You may have a mortgage, credit cards, car payments and other unsecured loans. You have to pay these off, if you dont your creditors will be coming after you. Depending on how much debt you have will more than likely decide how much free time you have. If you've got loads of debt you may be taking overtime to to pay off your debt.

What if the universal income became a reality? You would have more options and choices. You could have the same amount of debt but not have to work so hard because you've got that monthly cushion each month. If you wanted you could be really frugal and not bother working at all. Another option if you wanted.

Most people are eithe cash rich and time poor (because they're working hard to earn all that wonga) or time rich and cash poor (lots of free time but their not working a lot to earn money). Very few people are cash rich and time rich ,usually the richest in society. There are some unlucky ones who are both time poor and cash poor, usually the poorest.

If people had the universal credit we would be a lot more time rich then we are now as the state would be paying us for our time rather than having to go and earn money during that same time.
And what would people do with that time? Well anything they like really. Work has a physical and psychological toll. How do you feel after an 8 hour day plus commute? I'm assuming quite tired? But imagine if you werent as tired? What would you be doing? what would you be thinking? I know more people would be more politically engaged for example. Thinking about why they like or dislike what the government of the day is doing and because they had more time, doing something about it.

We are also all encouraged to work hard and take on lots of debt so we can have stuff. But this stuff, and by extension the debt is a millstone around our necks. What if we want to randomly take time off work? We can't because we have to pay it off our debt. Or just jack our job in? We cant because we have to pay off our debt. You're much less likely to do anything that rocks the boat in case your risk your job and therefore everything you've purchased with your debt. I think there's a reason why some people say debt is slavery

 

[GerritT]

Before you read I did the maths as I was going and I didn't realise how much I couldn't get it to work so please ignore the thread if you want but since I typed it thought i'd post anyway.

Universal basic income seems to be a popular concept with many at the moment, i'm not sure but here's my proposal for how it could work:<snipz>
Any thoughts suggestions?

I did the maths here in 0031 (back when I was still affiliated with a political party): it doesn't work. "But you'll save so much money, because of no administration costs! No need for a social net!"
And when an OAP needs expensive treatment? Single mom with handicapped child? "Charity!"
Who will do all the work? "Robots!"
And it's always a sport to get them to confess as quickly as possible "that actually they're not good at arithmetic".

 

[MyQul]

Some of us pay towards 'the state' that we depend upon. Some just take what they can. Um, think we've been here before!

And that's the thing with a universal income. Some way would have to be found whereby enough money is coming in to pay for it, so as to pay it out. I dont know enough about UI to know what that is

 

[MyQul]

The petrol suppliers could pay to maintain our roads. They are the ones profiting from it.

Sounds a sensible idea. Why doesnt that happen now though?

 

[MyQul]

Right so now we have a larger, much larger, number of people with some money but nothing to do all day. Yes I know there will be the motivated few but mostly not, so what are they going to do with their time? Sex n Drugs n Rock and Role? Think about it!

The only way of it working would be some sort of workfare were some time commitment was require in return for the wonga.


aamcle

Of course there will some doing sex/drugs/rock n roll but I think they'd be a lot less than you think. Would you? I bet you'd be brewing more and engaging more in whatever else hobbys you've got and perhaps starting new ones, and that's what I think most other people would do

 

[Gunge]

.

Most people are eithe cash rich and time poor

I'm cash poor and time poorer. Beat that! But today I thought 'sod-it' and knocked up a nice (hopefully) porter instead. Ok I lost a day's pay but look what I'll have gained!

 

[MyQul]

I'm cash poor and time poorer. Beat that! But today I thought 'sod-it' and knocked up a nice (hopefully) porter instead. Ok I lost a day's pay but look what I'll have gained!

I did mention the unlucky ones are both cash poor and time poor.

and the tax man lost whatever you pay in income tax and the VAT on whatever you would have spent the extra days pay on but I bet those hours spent making that porter were far more satisifying than going to work. But HM Government would far rather you were grafting

 

[Clint]

Think myqul has that covered.
Chippy tea close the thread please before someone starts a row....

 

[Saisonator]

What about the pull for new arrivals into Europe from across the Med?
Imagine a young uneducated man living in Nigeria or Morocco and hearing about how in England they pay you £1000 a month to sit on your arse all day!

 

[MyQul]

What about the pull for new arrivals into Europe from across the Med?
Imagine a young uneducated man living in Nigeria or Morocco and hearing about how in England they pay you �£1000 a month to sit on your arse all day!

That of course would be an absolute given, seeing as though those same young men are travelling here to Europe already, for a better life. So any country/government willing to consider UBI would have to factor that in and deal with it.