Trub yeast re-use

[terrym]

I don't want to take the subject too off topic. But as someone new to brewing, I'm really interested in storing yeast strains from different part of the UK. I'd like a sample of the yeast Timothy Taylors/Black Sheep use for brewing a Yorkshire best bitter . Likewise, l found the Wilko (Nottingham) yeast great for a clean Midland bitter (l brewed a Bathams clone & it took me straight back to Stourbridge...not necessarily a good thing!). I'm persuaded that yeast is important for brewing different regional styles and want to store different varieties, whether expensive/inexpensive, originally liquid or dried. Any advice on how to do this is much appreciated.

There are many bottled conditioned beers available in the UK, including those which, apparently, contain the primary strain. You can harvest the yeast and then culture to pitching quantities.
A list of beers is here
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/bottle-conditioned-beer-list.58007/
and one method of culturing here*
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/...up-yeast-from-bottle-conditioned-beers.53567/
Plus there is other stuff out there on tinterweb if you look for it
Others more knowledgeable will be able to comment on long term storage with its pros and cons . From a personal perspective there are enough yeast strains out there from the major yeast suppliers plus the option of culturing your own to make it unnecessary.

Edit
* Correct link now shown thanks to @PhilBrew

 

[PhilBrew]

Agree might be a good time to discuss the collecting of the slurry from the trub, not a hard thing to master nor is it time consuming. For those interested in learning.
https://beerandbrewing.com/fermentation-resurrection-reusing-yeast/

... interesting ... when I pointed out how the debate often progresses differently when people use different names for the same technique up in post #29 ... I didn't expect us to progress to using different words for the same stuff, so soon

@foxy there's a description of how to make and use a yeast starter over there ...
https://beerandbrewing.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter/
... I've chosen to post a link from the same website that you chose to refer to, no trickery here (nothing up my sleeve) I just thought if you were happy to refer to the content there then you must have some element of trust of their content ... but then, I'm confident that if you were to search much more widely you'd find ALL the methods for building a yeast starter would be very similar.
Now, have you never noticed how NONE of those methods for building and using a yeast starter that you've EVER read, have suggested that you should rinse the trub from the yeast slurry before pitching

Which begs the question ... what do YOU think is in the trub in the bottom of a larger ferment (of beer you're making to drink) ... that isn't in the trub at the bottom of a smaller ferment (in a flask of starter)??

Cheers, PhilB

 

[johncrobinson]

Umpteen billion bugs
Starters should be prepared under aseptic conditions to obtain a pure culture.
Trub from the bottom of the fermenter will be contaminated and may even be the better for it.
But it will not be clean that much is certain.

 

[Drunkula]

Any advice on how to do this is much appreciated.

Google 'banking yeast glycerine' or 'freezing yeast glycerine'.

 

[PhilBrew]

Umpteen billion bugs
Starters should be prepared under aseptic conditions to obtain a pure culture.
Trub from the bottom of the fermenter will be contaminated and may even be the better for it.
But it will not be clean that much is certain.

... and while that's sort of interesting ... and might explain why commercial breweries that bottom crop and re-pitch their yeast (quite apart from avoiding mutations) will occasionally re-seed a fresh culture ... e,g, as Fuller's explain over there (link) ...

Every ten to twelve generations, a fresh culture of yeast is grown to keep the quality consistent with every brew batch, similar to the way sourdough bread is made.

... and/or, when cell viability is reduced through contamination, breweries will acid wash their yeast, as Murphy and Son explain over there (link) ...

Alternatively, if the infection is bacterial, it may be possible to eliminate it by acid washing. This involves treating the yeast with acid for a period immediately prior to pitching. The principal of this procedure is that the low pH produced (pH 2·0 – 2·2) is sufficient to kill the majority of contaminating bacteria, whilst the yeast (which is more tolerant of low pH) is left unscathed. In order to carry out this procedure it is essential that the correct conditions are obtained or the yeast may also be damaged.

... but we've already established in this thread (up at post #12) that we're not talking about (acid) washing ... just rinsing.

Let's face it, rinsing trub in boiled and cooled water in a large kilner jar is never going to be an effective way of removing bacteria ... and the should in your statement "Starters should be prepared under aseptic conditions to obtain a pure culture." recognises the fact that it's very unlikely that any of us homebrewers (barring the odd few who may have set up their own home yeast lab) will achieve that. So the comparison stands.

Perhaps, to avoid comments from the smart-ar$es like yourself , I should have asked @foxy what he THINKS he is removing by rinsing yeast trub from the bottom of a larger ferment ... that isn't needed to be removed from trub harvested from the bottom of a smaller (starter) ferment?

Cheers, PhilB

 

[foxbat]

Google 'banking yeast glycerine' or 'freezing yeast glycerine'.

Have you tried that yourself yet? I bought a pack of tubes on ebay and some glycerine from boots and promptly melted the tube tops in the pressure cooker, jeez... bad day in the kitchen and all that. Been meaning to try it again some time.

 

[Drunkula]

Have you tried that yourself yet?

Yep. When I first did it I thought it said 50% glycerine and it turns out it's 15. I put 5 or 6 little jam jars of overbuilt London ESB / WLP002 that I'd pressure cooked with the glycerine solution inside.

I made starters from 3 within 2 months and they were fine, then they started taking longer on the plate. I read up that too much glycerine causes this but maybe them being about 5 months old made a difference - I really don't know.

Recently I did 15% but didn't account for the water in the yeast slurry because I was a little worse for wear. The liqid in them froze. I noticed it 2 days later and thought so it, let's try making a starter now and that went like the clappers, but I don't know if the other 2 will die over time and the first one hadn't had full cell damage.

The jam jars pressure cooked fine. I'm using miniature whiskey plastic whiskey bottles that I left with star san in for current tests. I used non-rinse acidified bleach on them.

 

[nige]

I suppose you can just buy yeast once the just grow your own after forever much like a good sourdough but I just can't be arsed. Each to there own.

 

[foxy]

Perhaps, to avoid comments from the smart-ar$es like yourself , I should have asked @foxy what he THINKS he is removing by rinsing yeast trub from the bottom of a larger ferment ... that isn't needed to be removed from trub harvested from the bottom of a smaller (starter) ferment?

Cheers, PhilB

I thought foxy answered that in post 2
It is the dead yeast which is the biggest problem, which is why the likes of Dave Miller, Gordon Strong, Jamil Zainasheff even John Palmer as discussed in his latest book about separating the slurry from the trub would give the same answer which I gave. Which Steve suggests was the wrong answer.
The only living organisms in the fermenter is the live yeast which is best seperated from the trub and decanted off. Which was also suggested in the Mr Malty link which steve put up.

... interesting ... when I pointed out how the debate often progresses differently when people use different names for the same technique up in post #29 ... I didn't expect us to progress to using different words for the same stuff, so soon

@foxy there's a description of how to make and use a yeast starter over there ...
https://beerandbrewing.com/how-to-make-a-yeast-starter/
... I've chosen to post a link from the same website that you chose to refer to, no trickery here (nothing up my sleeve) I just thought if you were happy to refer to the content there then you must have some element of trust of their content ... but then, I'm confident that if you were to search much more widely you'd find ALL the methods for building a yeast starter would be very similar.
Now, have you never noticed how NONE of those methods for building and using a yeast starter that you've EVER read, have suggested that you should rinse the trub from the yeast slurry before pitching

Which begs the question ... what do YOU think is in the trub in the bottom of a larger ferment (of beer you're making to drink) ... that isn't in the trub at the bottom of a smaller ferment (in a flask of starter)??

Cheers, PhilB

I don't recall the OP mentioning a starter, and I don't know what you are trying to achieve with the question or the link. To answer your question though, there will be nothing in the starter or flask which will cause off flavours to a beer after pitching. The off flavours come om dead yeast cells, billions of them

I'm sorry but I fail to see anything wrong with @strange-steve 's suggestion here. He ultimately states "So to answer the OP's question, yes you can repitch some (not all) of the trub from a previous brew, but be extra cautious with your sanitation and if storing the trub for more than a couple of weeks it's probably best to make a starter for it."

I reckon I could count myself amongst hundreds, maybe thousands, of homebrewers who have done just that and achieved good or great results depending on their personal standards/perceptions.
I also don't think a welcoming and inclusive homebrewing forum is really the best place for someone who cant accept another individual expressing an opinion about something that differs to their own without feeling the need to lambast them over it and ward others against heeding their views. By all means offer a counter opinion but continually denouncing the opinion of others and encouraging forum members to only google for the 'correct' answers just seems at odds with the point of this thing.

The problem is in the word, 'trub' As I have mentioned above the writers who write and share their knowledge with home brewers I would give more credence to than a home brewer on a forum who will often state, 'I have been doing it this way for years' or 'it works alright for me'
Learning skills through a forum instead of researching and finding out the best way to do a process means you will pick up someone else's bad habits.
I do know there are people out there who dump there next wort onto the top of the fermenter, just because they do it doesn't make it right, its just poor practice. Imagine spending 5 or 6 hours brewing a wort another hour milling the grain and treating the water, money spent on hops and grain to have it ruined through dumping the wort on top of the trub from a previous brew when for the sake of a few dollars, or a couple of hours while brewing to separate the yeast 'slurry' from the 'trub'.

 

[PhilBrew]

I don't recall the OP mentioning a starter, and I don't know what you are trying to achieve with the question or the link. To answer your question though, there will be nothing in the starter or flask which will cause off flavours to a beer after pitching. The off flavours come om dead yeast cells, billions of them

… Jeez! You really haven't got a clue how yeast and fermentations work, have you

The problem is in the word, 'trub' As I have mentioned above the writers who write and share their knowledge with home brewers I would give more credence to than a home brewer on a forum who will often state, 'I have been doing it this way for years' or 'it works alright for me'
Learning skills through a forum instead of researching and finding out the best way to do a process means you will pick up someone else's bad habits.

... which is exactly how this bull$hit "habit" of yeast rinsing came about ... and that's the point @strange-steve, and now I, have tried to explain to you ... but clearly you are beyond redemption

Cheers, PhilB

 

[foxy]

… Jeez! You really haven't got a clue how yeast and fermentations work, have you

... which is exactly how this bull$hit "habit" of yeast rinsing came about ... and that's the point @strange-steve, and now I, have tried to explain to you ... but clearly you are beyond redemption

Cheers, PhilB

Whatever makes you happy.

 

[foxy]

Transferred to a secondary today after 4 days, as can be seen no hop residue, no break material, just clean healthy yeast. If you can leave the hops and break material in the kettle then you can either save that yeast, or transfer a fresh wort over the top, dependent on the expected ABV. If low then removal of some of the yeast is advised. As the yeast is only 4 days into the ferment, is clean and not showing signs of any dead yeast and is fine to use.
The yeast used is CN- 36 a high attenuating, high flocculating dry yeast. Anyone who brews hoppy AIPA's this is probably one of the best dry yeasts going.

 

[johncrobinson]

Thats some stash of yeast foxy.Looks nice and clean as well

 

[foxy]

Thats some stash of yeast foxy.Looks nice and clean as well

We had another debate a while back about the merits of leaving the trub in the kettle. Some cold break is fine going into the fermenter, and I know I do get cold break into mine even though it looks clear. some of the cold break isn't visible until it gets down to 4 C. Makes a cleaner tasting beer, and an easy harvest.

 

[Scottyburto]

If anyone is still interested I stumbled across this. Although the article is about re using dry hops it, the method they use is simply to put fresh wort on or through trub. The benefit of extracting an extra use from dry hoping is an unexpected bonus.

https://beerandbrewing.com/elements-of-beer-recycling-hops-in-the-brewhouse/
In terms of my original post, due to the current situation I didn't get chance to do another brew straight after my india pale ale. Experiment for another day, more so now there's an additional benefit.