Trub, trub, glorious trub...

[matt76]

Help me out here folks, i always seem to end up with shedloads of trub - am i doing something wrong or is this just par for the course? Can you see if you can debug my process?

I'm all grain brewing but ~12L batches. I'm really enjoying my hobby, the beer tastes good, it's bright and it's clear - so if it ain't broke don't fix it you might well say.

True, but it'd be good to improve my yield a little - i normally get ~19 x 500ml bottles but there's more beer soaked into all that trub. Also, I'm starting to harvest yeast from the cake - less crud and more yeast in the cake would make that simpler.

Here's my process:
1. Mash in my brew kettle in the oven around 65degC for 1 hour, stirring at half time.
2. Pour the wort into an FV using a grain bag to separate the grain.
3. Grain bag goes back in the brew kettle in the oven for a 10min dunk sparge at 80degC
4. Add this wort to the FV and squeeze the grain bag like hell to get as much liquid out as possible.
5. Boil on the kitchen gas hob - typically 1 hour, adding hops as required (only used pellets to date). I don't skim off any foam or break material.
6. Add half a protofloc tablet 10-15 mins before end of boil
7. Chill wort with immersion chiller - typically only 5-10mins. At this point i usually notice crystal clear wort on top, and small pale globules just beneath the surface - it all gets mixed up if i move the chiller around a little to aid mixing & cooling.
8. Pour contents of kettle into a sanitised FV - i once tried putting through a sieve to filter out some crud, but the sieve just clogged up and the trub was same as always. So everything from the brew kettle goes in the FV.
9. Pitch the yeast and seal it up - dry hop if required - bottle when done, typically after 2-3 weeks.

Below is my Czech Pilsner just after pitching. You can see the line of trub around 5.5L, though this has now compacted down to 3.5L - better, but that's still a big dent in my overall yield.

The only solution i can think of is to go no chill and syphon the clear wort into the FV next day and leave the crud behind. Or just brew stronger and then liquor back in the FV to compensate for trub losses!

Though i do wonder if draining slowly from a picnic cooler mash/sparge tun would leave more behind, and similarly for those who have a larger brew kettle with a drain tap at the bottom, would that leave more crud behind.

Any tips welcome!

Cheers,

Matt

 

[Dutto]

"What yeast are you using?" Personally, I mainly use Wilko's Ale Yeast (aka Nottingham Yeast or Gervin-12 Yeast) which is a bottom fermenting yeast with a high flocculation rate. In other words, the trub goes straight to the bottom where it compacts.

"How long are you leaving the brew to ferment?" Personally, I leave mine for at least two weeks which (apart from letting the yeast tidy up the brew) allows the yeast to compact at the bottom of the FV.

Finally, "How do you remove the brew from the FV?" I use a syphon that has a fairly fine filter at the bottom. I drive the syphon as far as it will go into the trub and start the syphon; and I don't worry it it takes a long time to syphon off the beer.

Here's a photograph of the syphon ...

... and here's where I got the filter at the end ...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01M7NT4LK/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Enjoy.

 

[ACBEV]

I can't see anything wrong with your process. I don't filter anything from my boiler, everything gets chucked in the FV, but I end up with about an inch or two of trub when finished. The only time the trub is thicker is when I use leaf hops.

I mostly use Wyeast London Ale III, which is highly Flocculant and I think helps to compact the trub. As Dutto suggested, you could try using a different yeast.

 

[lancon]

To me that looks more like hop pellets than anything, I would try after chilling stir to create whirlpool effect and then syphon out, perhaps a rest to let everything settle down. You could try a hop spider, though pellets do clog them a bit. You're probably better using leaf I think.

 

[foxbat]

Try a hop bag in the boil. I use a large paint strainer bag with a draw string around the neck. Loads of room for hops to infuse and the string can be tied outside the boiler.

Apart from that my process is the same as yours and I get about an inch of trub or less in the FV.

 

[The Baron]

I did have more trub when I used BIAB and sqeezed the hell out of the bag but now I use a all in one system and it is fine, Could it be the grain crush ? as a lot of flour will get through the bag if you squeeze hard and you have a finer crush apart from that don't see anything wrong with your process

 

[matt76]

Thanks all for the replies so far...

Dutto/ACBEV - so far I've only used 4 different Wyeasts - But the trub is there before I pitch the yeast so I don't believe that's the issue. I syphon to a bottling bucket, but the bottled beer is clear. I think the issue is earlier in the process. I usually leave it fermenting for 2-3 weeks so everything has plenty of time to settle out.

lancon/foxbat/baron - I buy grain pre crushed and I do notice quite a bit of flour in the bag, but it all goes in to my mash regardless. Also the hop thing is interesting - maybe I will try a hop bag for the boil...

Thanks all

 

[Cwrw666]

Suggestions:
1. don't squeeze the grain bag past the point of getting clear wort out of it.
2. as the brew comes up to the boil skim the hot break off the top - this will reduce the amount of hot break that settles into the trub at the end of the boil.
3. use leaf hops and have them in a loose bag in the boil.

 

[matt76]

To illustrate the problem further, this is a 1L all grain starter quiet I made last night - no hops or yeast anywhere near it yet. I just gave the grain a press with a spoon in the sieve to get the worst of the liquid out. Hmm.....

 

[The Baron]

looks like flour getting through the bag. It does not look like so much hops as it would be greener plus I would not have thought your hop bill would be massive on a Pilsner. Get a hop spider for the hops to eliminate most of the hop residue and also once emptied of hops use it to strain the wort on transfer you will then at least find out if it is the flour from the grain Ps it make block the spider so you may have to empty the spider in the transfer process. I had the same issue with BIAB as I said in my earlier post and thats what I had to do to remove most of the trub or as you said no chill then syphon into the FV the next day, I only no chill these days and it works well for me infact if I do a early morning brew and leave outside it is usually ready to pitch late teatime in this colder weather if not overnight chill is fine

 

[SteveH]

My process is similar to yours except I chill with ice/water in the sink, and I don't stir the wort so the trub is mostly settled at the bottom by the time it's cooled.

By syphoning carefully I leave most of the debris in the kettle (2l approx of about 14) so there's very little trub after fermenting.

I've also tried chucking the lot into the fermenter but the result was much more trub after fermenting so I guess the losses are about the same either way?

 

[skulltat280]

I've only made 1 BIAB and I believe it's the flour from the crush. I squeezed the hell out off my bag but next time I'll let it drip above the boiler to see if it helps

 

[matt76]

I've only made 1 BIAB and I believe it's the flour from the crush. I squeezed the hell out off my bag but next time I'll let it drip above the boiler to see if it helps

You could be right... But I've been pondering this.....

I think the amount of trub is disproportionate to the amount of liquid from the grain bag when I squeeze it - I reckon at most squeezing yields an extra 500ml-1L wort.

Also, when I made the 1L starter yesterday I gave the grain in the sieve (and I only used 165g Maris Otter) a brief press with a spoon - I don't believe this accounts for all the trub in my bottle.

 

[skulltat280]

Maybe worth trying a piece of muslin cloth tied to the end of your syphon when doing your first transfer

 

[AdeDunn]

If you REALLY want to get clearer wort with BIAB (and be warned, this really moves away from the ideal of simplicity):-

1) Do a manual vorlauf before you transfer your wort etc (need a tap on your boiler). Basically, run the wort slowly off from the tap, put it back into the top of the grain bag, over and over and over, until you start getting clear wort from the tap.

2) Now DON'T raise your bag, seriously, don't, as this very action squeezes the bag and pushes out the flour in all but the finest of bags (an alternative right there, buy a finer mashing bag... lol). Instead, drain your wort from the boiler into a clean FV, do this slowly so as not to suck any flour on the bottom of your boiler up (there's always a bit that settles there....).

3) You need to have a false bottom for the next bit, but let your bag drip drain IN PLACE, to get the last bit out of your grain, once you're happy it's done, drain this into that clean FV with the rest of your wort. Close the tap. Remove the grain bag.

4) Clean your boiler with hot water and a clean dish sponge (you'll be amazed at how much easier this makes cleaning after the boil too...). Rinse it out.

5) Put your wort back into the boiler.

6) Do your boil, but put your hops in a bag or hop spider. Or, if you are using whole hops, fit a bazooka filter onto your tap, the hops will add one more line of defense against trub, blocking a lot of the break material from getting transferred.

Adds a bit of time to your brew day, but it does work, I do it myself. Or, you could mess around trying to find a finer mashing bag (I got one off AliExpress that's so fine I can't use it with my pump without running my pump on a trickle.....) as that'll then filter your wort better.

Combined with break handling methods, it helps when you're a BIAB brewer, but starts to move you away from the point of BIAB...

 

[matt76]

If you REALLY want to get clearer wort ...

Or I could just make a slightly stronger wort and then liquor back in the FV to compensate for trub losses!

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response - along with everyone else too.

I think the important point is I haven't missed anything fundamental, I'm not doing anything daft.

Many thanks - I appreciate all the suggestions.

Matt

 

[stz]

Everybody will have covered this, but the idea is generally to carry as little rubbish as possible across at every step. If you can leave it in the mash tun, great, if you can leave it in the copper, great, if you can leave it in the fermenter great, if you can leave it in the conditioning tank, great. You'll get losses, but generally you want them as early as possible so you can work on maximising your packaged volume. Another thing to think of is fining optimisation. You want to fine just as much as you need to, any more and you'll have greater losses. When carrying out fining trials you run from 5-30ppm which is such a stupendously low amount. Like high end I'd be using 0.48g of protofloc on your batch size. From my perspective you are pretty much doing everything to ensure that all of the rubbish comes across at every stage!

 

[AdeDunn]

Or I could just make a slightly stronger wort and then liquor back in the FV to compensate for trub losses!

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response - along with everyone else too.

I think the important point is I haven't missed anything fundamental, I'm not doing anything daft.

Many thanks - I appreciate all the suggestions.

Matt

Ner, you're just falling victim to common problems with BIAB brewing, especially with bag squeezing thrown in. Heck, I built my eBIAB rig for the very purpose of tackling a lot of them....

Ideally, you want to be seeing something like this left behind in the kettle once you transfer, well I do anyway:-



It gets left there too... lol Got even better with my last brew, as finally got that whirlpool pipe you can see to work, so I had a little mound in the middle as well. You can get even better using whole hops and a bazooka, but unfortunately you lose more wort in the process..


It helps as well if you use software, as you can tell it how much you lose to trub in the FV, and it'll allow for this on your batch volume and your calculations.

 

[skulltat280]

Or I could just make a slightly stronger wort and then liquor back in the FV to compensate for trub losses!

Seriously, thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response - along with everyone else too.

I think the important point is I haven't missed anything fundamental, I'm not doing anything daft.

Many thanks - I appreciate all the suggestions.

Matt

I thought of doing this with mine for more volume. My abv is 6.7% so thought I could afford to bring it down a % or 2 no problem but I'm afraid of it tasting watery

 

[pmh]

Hi,

I've not long been doing AG brews, on to my 3rd batch and already seeing improvements, however one thing I have noticed is almost like a chemical/plastic taste in background of the finished beer.
I sanitise everything and careful when moving to 2nd fermenter, is this just because I'm using a plastic fermenter or am I doing something wrong, has anyone else experienced this?