Translating hops into flavour vs bitterness

[Johnmorril]

Hi again all,

I'm midway way through my 5th all-grain batch (currently part way through primary fermentation), trying to perfect a punchy, citrusy american pale ale.

Before this finishes and I then begin the dry hop I have a question about making my hops add flavour and aroma rather than bitterness.

My hop combinations in the past have always tended to focus on the big Cs (citra,columbus, centinnial) plus simcoe and amarillo. In the beginning I simply thought that adding a ton of hops in the dry hop phase would result in a really punchy, tropical pale ale but soon realised it was a more nuanced process than this.

I have since been trying to methodically add hops later during the boil and still pack plenty of punch with the dry hop, but I still fail to have these hops translate into a big tropical, citrusy finish. instead my beers are left with an aftertaste that is intensely bitter (although it mellows over time). Worth noting i dont believe it is just bitterness and other factors are probably coming into play.

long story short, before I dry hop I'd love to hear some tips on ensuring the hops add that big punch and continue to the finish (something like Siren's Soundwave or a Beavertown Gamma Ray / Neckoil) for those in the UK.

Details of current batch:
4.5 gallons
4kg extra pale malt
500g munich malt
boil (slightly wrong as only boiled for perhaps 40 mins at rolling boil) with ~15g each of amarillo and centenniall added FWH, 20 mins addition of 22g citra, 22g amarillo, 16g centennial, flameout additions of 33g citra, 22g amarillo, 15g cascade.

Thanks!
JM

 

[Ciaran12s]

I know what you mean @Johnmorril, I've had the same thing happen with a recent brew. It's really good, tropical juice type flavour but there is a lot of bitterness there. My pre-boil was about 6 or 7 litres shorter than the recipe but the hop additions weren't adjusted for this so that could be part of the reason. I'm going to replicate it and instead of the 60 minute addition, I'll make it a 30 minute to see how that goes bitterness wise.

I'm sure others will be able to offer good advice. There is calculators for all this but I can't get my **** in gear to bother with all that yet

 

[Johnmorril]

Good to know I'm not the only one! I've used the recipe builders etc but still no luck.

Most frustrating thing is that it smells incredible and I think I've cracked it everytime but that smell doesn't translate nearly enough into flavour, instead the bitterness overpowers it almost completely.

 

[Ciaran12s]

Yeah this one is exactly the same mate! I haven't really much of a clue, but hopefully someone can advise- mashing at a higher temperature gives more unfermentables than the lower range. Could this increased unfermentables contribute towards sweetness in the finished beer giving it more balance against the heavy bitterness comes through?

Another idea I have is to try and add some malts which will contribute heavily towards maltiness- I've found this one (golden promise and carapils) hasn't got much maltiness at all. Maybe a speciality malt would help balance the heavy additions as Well? I haven't looked in to it yet though.

 

[SurfBum808]

Hi again all,



I'm midway way through my 5th all-grain batch (currently part way through primary fermentation), trying to perfect a punchy, citrusy american pale ale.



Before this finishes and I then begin the dry hop I have a question about making my hops add flavour and aroma rather than bitterness.



My hop combinations in the past have always tended to focus on the big Cs (citra,columbus, centinnial) plus simcoe and amarillo. In the beginning I simply thought that adding a ton of hops in the dry hop phase would result in a really punchy, tropical pale ale but soon realised it was a more nuanced process than this.



I have since been trying to methodically add hops later during the boil and still pack plenty of punch with the dry hop, but I still fail to have these hops translate into a big tropical, citrusy finish. instead my beers are left with an aftertaste that is intensely bitter (although it mellows over time). Worth noting i dont believe it is just bitterness and other factors are probably coming into play.



long story short, before I dry hop I'd love to hear some tips on ensuring the hops add that big punch and continue to the finish (something like Siren's Soundwave or a Beavertown Gamma Ray / Neckoil) for those in the UK.



Details of current batch:

4.5 gallons

4kg extra pale malt

500g munich malt

boil (slightly wrong as only boiled for perhaps 40 mins at rolling boil) with ~15g each of amarillo and centenniall added FWH, 20 mins addition of 22g citra, 22g amarillo, 16g centennial, flameout additions of 33g citra, 22g amarillo, 15g cascade.



Thanks!

JM

Hi JM,
I use BeerSmith software ($27US) and get very predictable results. In fact, I think it is fair to say that I would not brew without it! I plugged in you recipe and the software calculated 66.2 IBUs, which is close to the high bitterness limit for an American IPA.

My recommendation would be to use brewing software and adjust the default alpha acid percentage to match the alpha acid on each package of hops you purchase from the store.

Hope this helps!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Leon103]

I think the key is balance. Throwing a load of hops in won't get the results you are looking for. You have way to many hops in the boil process. You have about double the ibu of that of some of the beers you mentioned.

 

[dan125]

I agree with Leon, you've got quite alot of hops in the boil there.
Its not just isomerised alpha acids in hops that add bitterness (or the perception of it) and the whirpool/dry hops will also add bitterness.
I'd try halving the FWH, or doing away with them altogether, and move the 20min addition to 10 or 5mins.
you could also try chilling the wort to 70ish C before adding the whirlpool hops to extract less bitternes and get max flavour from them.
:

 

[Duxuk]

I agree with Leon, you've got quite alot of hops in the boil there.
Its not just isomerised alpha acids in hops that add bitterness (or the perception of it) and the whirpool/dry hops will also add bitterness.
I'd try halving the FWH, or doing away with them altogether, and move the 20min addition to 10 or 5mins.
you could also try chilling the wort to 70ish C before adding the whirlpool hops to extract less bitternes and get max flavour from them.
:

What he said. I now cool to 80C before adding my flameout hops. I can then leave them to steep for 30 minutes which really gets the flavour. If I put 100g of C hops in at 100C and left them for this time it would add a lot of bitterness. You also need to be careful with pellets. They definitely need to be added at 80C or below if you're going to use a significant quantity at or after flameout. Hops added even at 5 minutes will add bitterness and you'll probably rid them of much of their lighter elements which give those flavours you're looking for. Why not try a brew with bittering hops for 60 mins and everything else added at flameout, cooled to 80C or below?

 

[jeg3]

What's already been said is right on the nail. Get some brewing software and use your own taste buds to calibrate the IBU of a certain style.

IBU on its own isn't the full story; different beer styles will need different IBU to impart the same relative bitterness, and the higher the OG, the higher the IBU needs to be.

It's worth looking up a new England IPA recipe, they rely on late additions and massive amounts of dry hopping

 

[Johnmorril]

Guys,

Thanks so much. Really helpful to get collective replies that point to the same thing.

Think I’ve probably thought it’s technique that adds to the flavour. And so I’ve compensated with more hops which only exacerbates the problem.

I wonder if I can somewhat save this batch by chilling out on the dry hop and maybe get a better flavour.

Brewing software it is!