Top Cropping Question

[timtoos]

Hi all,
I brewed a Landlord clone yesterday using the Wyeast 1469 yeast. I pitched yesterday at 16:30 and by before 22:00 fermentation had started to show signs.
Anyway, it was fermenting really today, so by about 14:30 I decided to top crop the yeast. This is the first time I have done this btw.
I scooped away the top and discoloured compounds and cropped a bit, not loads into a sample jar. Everything sanitised.
Anyway, now the fermentation isn't dropping at the same trajectory as it was before the cropping. Its still bubbling like a good one and the heads still big on the beer but the tilt data isn't like it was.
Is this something to be concerned about?
Heres the tilt data:

TIA

 

[Hoddy]

Hi all,
I brewed a Landlord clone yesterday using the Wyeast 1469 yeast. I pitched yesterday at 16:30 and by before 22:00 fermentation had started to show signs.
Anyway, it was fermenting really today, so by about 14:30 I decided to top crop the yeast. This is the first time I have done this btw.
I scooped away the top and discoloured compounds and cropped a bit, not loads into a sample jar. Everything sanitised.
Anyway, now the fermentation isn't dropping at the same trajectory as it was before the cropping. Its still bubbling like a good one and the heads still big on the beer but the tilt data isn't like it was.
Is this something to be concerned about?
Heres the tilt data:

View attachment 44281

TIA

What is the blue line? Is that current SG? If that is the case then i wouldn't trust the tilt as the SG cant down and then back up again?!!??

As long as the gravity is continuinng to drop at a reaosnable rate i woudlnt worry to much. Top cropping is a well practised affair and if it affcted the yeasts performance people wouldn't be still doing it these days.

 

[timtoos]

Thanks Hoddy. Thats what I thought. I couldn't make out why the tilt was reading all over, its usually pretty good solid. Checked today and we are at 1028 so Im happy with that.
Are you still brewing? I used to love watching your YouTube vids (mrhodster is it?)

 

[jeg3]

I've top cropped WY1469 twice recently and WY1318 four times. I usually wait a couple of days before I crop, skim off the top layer, then wait for the krausen to reform, which can be anything from 20 minutes to 12 hours...Wyeast has some instructions on its website for harvesting top cropping strains, and suggests waiting until the fermentables have reduced by at least 50%, but I've cropped earlier than that without any issues.

Early in the fermentation I would probably only partially skim, but after halfway I skim the top, discard it and then take all of the remainder. The krausen reforms in another few hours.

I always take a bit of wort with it to keep it under as well, just ferment it out on the side and then pop it in the fridge. It will keep for ages under beer in the fridge.

I must add watching how the harvested 1469 behaved in the jar was mesmerising; it's like a lava lamp. Bear in mind that at that stage of fermentation - if you harvest the second skim - you have super viable yeast in a relatively small amount of wort and it goes ballistic.

 

[timtoos]

Does it matter if theres bits in the sample collected. It looks like hop debris maybe?
Do I need to collect more? This is from todays skim. I threw yesterdays away. I was planning on making a starter when I needed this yeast next.
Heres a pic of the sample.

 

[jeg3]

There were black flecks in both my crops of 1469. The important bit is that the yeast is healthy when you take it. I've top cropped for some years now and 1469 is the only yeast i've harvested that had these bits in it. The second and third uses of it were identical to the virgin pitch from the pouch in terms of leg and the krausen development, so I don't see it being an issue.

The photo looks good to me. You could pitch it without a starter within a week, anything longer than that will need a starter.

My last starter of 1469 didn't show any activity at all, but I pitched it anyway and it exploded in the FV within 12 hours to form a 4-5" krausen 1469 is known for, so don't be put off if you don't see much activity in the starter.

It looks like a 500ml jar, the amount looks OK. When it has been in the fridge for a while it will compact down and it will look like there isn't enough. Because it's almost pure yeast (besides the bits) you can calculate the volume and determine how may cells there are by googling it. I got almost there for my first repitch but I did underpitch slightly, but no ill effects.

 

[timtoos]

It looked healthy from my limited knowledge. Bit white head and gravity was at 1028 down from 1044 - after about 35 hours (ish) from initial pitching.
Should I take more yeast or call it a day with what I have?

 

[timtoos]

This is the sample now and another showing what's settled out. Is there enough? I was going to make a starter in a month or so.

 

[jeg3]

There's a decent quantity in there, but you could do with a bit more IMO.

If you did want more you could crop some more, just use a sanitised spoon and drop it in. Or propagate the yeast in the starter, but to do that you'll need a big enough vessel to do it in; either a 2l or 5l bottle would do because you need sufficient fermentables to grow the yeast and lots of head space. A litre of 1.040 wort would probably do the trick - that would start it off and increase the cell count

FYI - the bits in mine looked just like yours in the 0966 pic.

 

[timtoos]

Ive just got some more. I cant believe how it grows. When you crop does it come back stronger? Its blowing off down the cane now.
Heres the new amount. Surely enough now?

 

[timtoos]

BTW, Ive put in the fridge with the top fastened down but loose.

 

[jeg3]

one thing I've learned is I need bigger jars to crop active yeast. The stuff in the middle of the krausen is so active it gets straight to work and goes bonkers. Don't worry if it overflows the jar, starsan or any equivalent will sanitise the outside of the jar without affecting the yeast.

It will surprise you how much it compacts once it starts to settle. Looks like you'll have a good pitching amount there. When it comes to making the starter I get it out of the fridge, pour off the beer, leave it to reach room temp for a few hours then make up 200ml of 1.040 wort from DME, boil it then cool it and add it to the jar. I then leave for 24 hours and pitch the whole lot. Obviously I'll do this 1-2 days before the brew day in which I plan to pitch it.

 

[timtoos]

Fantastic. Thanks for the info everyone. Im hoping to get a few generations out of this yeast to make buying the packets really cheap - plus I love this yeast.
How long will it last in a fridge? Will I get a few months out of it before I make a starter?
Is a 200ml starter big enough? My starters tend to be 2L - or is it because theres more yeast here than a new wet yeast pack?

 

[jeg3]

If you've harvested enough yeast (which you have), you can pitch it immediately without a starter. But the longer it is left, the more cells will die and the bigger the starter you'll need to get back to a pitching quantity.

I've left 1469 for three months before and it only needed waking up with a 200ml starter.

If it was six months old I'd looking at a bigger starter, say 500ml or a litre. Over 12 months old I'd look at a 2 litre starter as a high proportion of cells would probably no longer be viable.

That said there are lots of folks on this forum who've woken old yeast up no problem.

 

[timtoos]

Many thanks for the advice.

 

[Nottsbeer]

If you've harvested enough yeast (which you have), you can pitch it immediately without a starter. But the longer it is left, the more cells will die and the bigger the starter you'll need to get back to a pitching quantity.

I've left 1469 for three months before and it only needed waking up with a 200ml starter.

If it was six months old I'd looking at a bigger starter, say 500ml or a litre. Over 12 months old I'd look at a 2 litre starter as a high proportion of cells would probably no longer be viable.

That said there are lots of folks on this forum who've woken old yeast up no problem.

Hi @jeg3, I'm going to use a Wyeast1469 in my next brew I top skimmed in September. I'm going to follow your advice here and use a 200 ml starter. My only concern is over pitching....I'm only going to make a 13L brew. Do you think I can overpitch from using 200ml? This is my first attempt using yeast I harvested so a little in the dark. I've tried using a calculator bit I'm not convinced with the results (2L starter was suggested, though the calculator presumed the yeast was from a pack and not cropped). Thx.

 

[timtoos]

Hi all again,

I have just tool some yeast from the top of a beer which was practically finished. Its White Labs WLP013 London yeast and I harvested so late as I was waiting for a suitable container to turn up as all my others were all full of other strains.

Anyway, the yeast on top was very thin indeed with lots of floating bits on top. It was a Brown Porter brew btw.

I took what I could and left the outside edges as what people suggest to do but theres not loads that I could get

Is this crop ok if I make a starter? Is the yeast suitable or is this the stuff that isnt very flocculant? Should I use it or dump?

Thanks

Attached is a pic of what I could collect

 

[jeg3]

Hi @jeg3, I'm going to use a Wyeast1469 in my next brew I top skimmed in September. I'm going to follow your advice here and use a 200 ml starter. My only concern is over pitching....I'm only going to make a 13L brew. Do you think I can overpitch from using 200ml? This is my first attempt using yeast I harvested so a little in the dark. I've tried using a calculator bit I'm not convinced with the results (2L starter was suggested, though the calculator presumed the yeast was from a pack and not cropped). Thx.

Hi, sorry I haven't been on in a while.

I don't use any calculators, all I do is make sure I have what looks like the right amount for a 23 litre brew. It's not very scientific.

I stopped using my 1469. I did 5 beers with it and it became malty and continued fermenting in the bottle.

For the first couple of brews it was superb though.

 

[Nottsbeer]

Hi, sorry I haven't been on in a while.

I don't use any calculators, all I do is make sure I have what looks like the right amount for a 23 litre brew. It's not very scientific.

I stopped using my 1469. I did 5 beers with it and it became malty and continued fermenting in the bottle.

For the first couple of brews it was superb though.

Hi, I didn't get around to playing with the yeast yet. I did try and culture some yeast from 2 beer bottles (US-05 yeast) to have a play. It did seem to work, in that it showed signs of life and was multiplying, tho I won't use it as the smell reminds me of failed brews in the past. Was good to have a play and will give it a go again when I have a brew for the 1469. Cheers.

 

[timtoos]

Anyone any feedback for my question please?

Not sure there is enough there and of decent quality.