To secondary or not to secondary, that is the question?

[davexecs]

Hi, this is my first post as a new member. I have been hombrewing on and off for 2 years and done an done various home kits, my favorite being muntons premium gold. I have had mixed sucess in the past. My problems have all be overcome with my latest purchase, a brew belt. I could never mainatin a stable temperatue to get a complete fermentation so my beers always were on the low alcohol side, and a bit sweet. That problem now overcome I am really geting into brewing my own beer and reading alot on various techniques.

My lated batch is the coopers IPA kit. I am doing this for my Aussie brother in law, now living in the UK, its his favorite brew back home and also to try and get a clearer end result. I have always in the past followd the instructions on the kits to the letter but after lots of reading feel that I can achieve a clearer product. I currently bottle condition my beer using 1L swingtop ambre bottles. I do this normally 2 days after fermention has completed and use a glucose syrup to carbonate them. Never had any problems with overcarbonating or anything so thats all good. I purchased some of the coopers carbonation drops this time to have a play with to see if they are any good. Anyway back onto my point:

I have read many forums and posts and am after some advise. I always end up with lots of sediment when I bottle condition my beers, not really a problem as I store them for about 4 months befor drinking so always have a good compact sediment at the bottom. However as am brewing for someone else not use to homebrew I want to elimiante as much of the sediment as possible. I am about 3 days into fermentation and think there are about 2-3 days left as am running it quite warm. I have a plastic keg I can use to transfer to secondary and for clearing.

DO I BOTHER is my main question! Lots of people have said this is a bit of a waste of time and seem to leave it the primary fermention bin to clear. I have read this can lead to yeast bite. Has anyone experienced this as i have not found anyone who has had this problem. What problems could I expect if I just leave it to clear for a good week or two in the primary, say if I put it my garage which is nice and cool as I have read the risk of transfering to seconday can bring its own problems, ie infection etc. As I want to get it as clear as possible once I have left to clear for a week or so wether it be in primary or secondary any advice on how to give it a cold crash other than having to buy a second hand fridge to put it in.

Thanks for reading and for any advice you may have.

Dave

 

[arturobandini]

I secondary all my beers not to reduce bottle sediment but as you said to get them off the dead yeast after a few days. That said I haven't noticed a massive amount of difference but the extra effort I put in to making beers from scratch I see a little extra bother sanitising and careful syphoning into secondary as a small price to pay to avoid potential off flavours.

In my experience there is no way of bottle conditioning beers without sediment. You have to condition in a seperate vessel, (pressure keg or whatever using force carbonation or priming) chill the vessel and your bottles to avoid fobbing and to dissolve co2 into the beer, make sure you're pulling through bright beer and bottle from the vessel before capping. There are products like the Blichmann beer gun that will help but I'd just say to advise your brother in-law to be careful not to pour the sediment.

 

[davexecs]

Thanks for the reply. I am moving soon so will have more room to play around with. Was thinking of buying a CORNELIUS KEG and a spare emptied out fridge when I move to play around with. Hmm interesting, will have a look into it.

One question: if i made a set up as shown in this link:

http://www.brew-it-yourself.co.uk/shop/ ... cts_id=387

Could I fill up bottles from the tap and then cap them or would this lead to problems? What is the benefit of using a beergun as I only saw one for the first time yeaterday. Will have to have a look into it.

 

[arturobandini]

Aleman , homebrew legend and Cornelius Baron, posts on here and uses a Blichmann Beer Gun I believe. You can indeed bottle from that tap as long as you have primed and get your bottles and Cornelius Keg chilled right down. I'd buy kegs from a guy on ebay called normannumpa (link - http://shop.ebay.co.uk/merchant/normannumpa ) even if he doesn't have any on ebay he can get anything and everything and is waaaay cheaper and more reliable than any other seller including homebrew shops. The Blichmann beer gun , i think, is a counter pressure filler so it minimises the risks of oxidisation when transferring your beer. If you fill your bottles with a good inch of foam to the lip then you should be likewise minimising your risk allowing no space for oxygen.

 

[davexecs]

Thanks for the info. Will go down to my local homebrew shop to see what gass bottle types he sells. Also I have a friend who runs a snooker centre so he may be able to get me a large Co2 cylinder or at least give me a contact where to get them and help me set it up as he deals with the cornelius kegs for his softdrinks.

I guess speed is an important thing then if filling from a tap, looking forward to giving it a go

Dave

 

[Parva]

I've done both kits and AG using primary only and had both crystal clear without any special treatment. I did try secondary once and if anything the result was worse but that was likely the brew and not the method. It's a case of seeing what works for you unfortunately. As a case in point, my latest brew is hazy but tastes great and this one has had gelatine finings and isinglass finings chucked at it, something I've never done before.

I've had crystal clear brews from the primary to cornie keg after 10 days and had mediocre results from trying the secondary FV and fining agents. I know what route I'll be taking with the brew I did last night when it comes to kegging.

 

[Alestar]

I always secondary condition, whether I'm bottling or kegging the final product. My first couple of brews were just done in a primary, and while I didn't get any off flavours, the difference in clarity was quite marked putting the secondary step into the process. If you're getting proper sediment (i.e. dead yeast, along with bits of break and hop and different coloured crud) in your bottles, hopefully that might sort it out. You'll have to live with some yeast though as a necessary by-product of bottle carbonation. as has been said.

It may be method related though; I boil in a big stock pot, so everything goes into the fermentor bar the bigger bits of hop that won't fit through my kitchen sieve. If you use a boiler with a tap, you may leave some of the break and crud below the tap line, or filter it out to some extent through the hops. Likewise if you filter your wort into the fermentor. Maybe then secondary conditioning has less to offer if you've got less sediment in to start with! I know it helps my beer though.

 

[Moley]

I've got a Cooper's Dark Ale which seems to have finished in the primary, so are you saying that even if I rack to a secondary (or 5 DJs), leave it a few days to drop bright and then bottle, there will still be a few yeast cells ready to wake up and set to work on that half teaspoon of priming sugar?

 

[trunky]

I rack when the primary fermentation appears to be over into a budget keg. At this stage the keg gets put in my cellar untill bright - usually 2-3 weeks. I have bottled and primed this bright beer (and cider) and there is a (let's simply call it 'another') fermentation that provides condition.

 

[Moley]

Ah .... so it only takes one active yeast cell to realise there's a bit more sugar to go at and it will start to re-populate the bottle, but that's why it's going to need a week in the warmth and not 2 days like some kits say.

This is making more sense now, thanks, and I guess that also explains why cleanliness is important, because it's only going to take one or two 'undesirables' to do the same.

 

[arturobandini]

Spot on Moley. The yeast will start to party with the reintroduction of sugars and make friends. If you drop all the yeast out of your beer before bottling and use priming sugars you'll get sweet flat clear beer.

 

[jamesb]

There will be more yeast in suspension that one cell though, even perfectly bright beer still has a fairly healthy yeast population. Obviously, the longer you leave in secondary the more yeast will drop out and you will eventually get to a point where it may take weeks and weeks to carbonate after priming, if it carbonates to an acceptable degree at all. Some commerical brewers add a couple of grains of yeast to their bottles when bottling (possibly the ones that filter their beer but still want bottle conditioned beers).

As a side note, theoretically it would only take one healthy yeast cell to complete the process as yeast reproduces asexually (in the presence of oxygen), new cells are formed by buds coming from the original cell - like this:

Once a cell has budded from that site, it can (from memory) do it again from other sites on the cell two or three times. Every time a new cell splits off from the parent (always called mothers!), the original site of the bud causes a scar and cannot reproduce there again

This is a picture of bud scars, this cell is pretty much knackered.

Note, these piccies aren't necessarily of brewers yeast, but the same principle applies to most yeasts.

 

[arturobandini]

So there is yeast still present in wine which for example has been conditioned over a period of months until it drops bright? I was under the impression that yeast will sediment out entirely in crystal clear beers? Learn something new everyday. I suppose it's a moot point for some brewers as if they clear their beers and add sugar they will be expecting it to carbonate and condition and drink within a month.

 

[jamesb]

So there is yeast still present in wine which for example has been conditioned over a period of months until it drops bright? I was under the impression that yeast will sediment out entirely in crystal clear beers? Learn something new everyday. I suppose it's a moot point for some brewers as if they clear their beers and add sugar they will be expecting it to carbonate and condition and drink within a month.

I can't speak for wine as I have no idea about the usual methods that wine makers drink, but even crystal clear beer still has yeast in it. When you remove the hard peg from the cask (I'm talking pubs here) in the morning after the previous session, there will be some gas escaping from the extra fermentation that has carried on overnight.

 

[arturobandini]

Are you talking about Ales there James? Cask Ales have a big clump (technical term) of yeast in the Barrel and continue to condition I thought? The introduction of air into the beer as it is hand pumped (Camra style) will cause other flavours and eventually the beer to spoil.

I'm a wine and beer maker and I don't filter my wines and I suppose it never crossed my mind that there would be any yeast in suspension in a clear drink. All good food for thought!

 

[jamesb]

Are you talking about Ales there James? Cask Ales have a big clump (technical term) of yeast in the Barrel and continue to condition I thought? The introduction of air into the beer as it is hand pumped (Camra style) will cause other flavours and eventually the beer to spoil.

I'm a wine and beer maker and I don't filter my wines and I suppose it never crossed my mind that there would be any yeast in suspension in a clear drink. All good food for thought!

Yes, I am. Keg beers are always filtered to remove the yeast.

But the cask ale principle is the same as bottle conditioned beers - any beer that you prime. Filtered, bright beer is a different beast.

I've always wondered about yeast autolysis with bcbs and cask ale. We worry here about leaving our beer on the yeast for too long, but it's always on the yeast in the cask and bottle - ok, not as much, but it still makes me wonder.

 

[trunky]

Most wines have the yeast killed by Pott Sorb I thought? So, very different to unfiltered/unpasteurised beers.

I am convinced it's the yeast remaining in bright beer that makes some people fart so much when they are not used to it.

 

[arturobandini]

Most wines have the yeast killed by Pott Sorb I thought? So, very different to unfiltered/unpasteurised beers.

Wines mass produced for quick turn around and consumption yes.

 

[jamesb]

Most wines have the yeast killed by Pott Sorb I thought? So, very different to unfiltered/unpasteurised beers.

I am convinced it's the yeast remaining in bright beer that makes some people fart so much when they are not used to it.

Heehee. Beer farts. I'm so used to them that I'd forgotten that happens.

(Yes, it would be the yeast IMHO)

 

[Moley]

Thanks for some interesting comments here :


By way of an experiment I've filled 22 bottles from the primary but racked the last 2 gallons to DJs, which I'll probably leave until the weekend after next before I bottle.

(First brew in a new bucket, no levels marked, I thought I'd under-counted the water but I suppose it's better under than over).