The Quest for the Perfect Bitter

[Northern_Brewer]

Could not agree more.
An English traditional bitter - or even paler summer ale - should have a bitterness ratio no higher than 0.6
So max 30 ibu for a 1.050 brew.

Any higher and it just loses its traditional roots

Nonsense - you're heading into mild territory there - or the blandification that's happened to some mainstream brands. Any discussion of bitter gets complicated just because of regional variations, in part because of whether a recipe is designed to be served through sparklers. Southern bitter tends to have more crystal and BU:GU's around 0.65-0.8, northern bitters tend to have less crystal (Boddies being one extreme with 0%!), more sulphate and BU:GU's up in the 0.8-0.9 range. Personally my taste is for something up in the 0.85 range.

As some examples :
London Pride is 30 IBU and 4.1% on cask, 35 IBU and 4.7% in bottle/keg, so BU:GU around .67. Per the Fuller's brewing books, it (and the rest of the Fuller's partigyle so Chiswick (RIP), ESB and Golden Pride) is pale malt with 7.2% light crystal and 0.19% chocolate malt - and I think most people (certainly up north!) would say it's on the crystal-heavy end of the spectrum, I certainly wouldn't want more crystal than that. But I might sneak up the chocolate a little bit for interest.

Compare that with Landlord at 39 IBU and 4.3% so must be up at around 0.85 BU:GU, and most clones have it at around 2-3% crystal. But apparently Nicks90 thinks that Landlord is not a traditional bitter.

Just as a general comment - I think "ordinary" <4% bitter is one of the hardest beers to do really well, but upping the ABV into 4.2-4.3% best range really helps.

Generous mineralisation is a feature, particularly up north. Murphy's suggest 170ppm Ca, 200 Cl, 400 SO4, 25 HCO3, 15 Mg for bitter (note the table headings are wonky). You can reduce that a bit for southern bitters. They suggest a pH of 5.0-5.3 going into the fermenter and 3.7-4.1 for finished beer in cask.

Yeast is really important, I'll just point you to what I said on this thread.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I wonder too, if people's perceptions of bitterness differ.

They do. Often I will like a beer with quite assertive bitterness (IPA) while my wife will screw up her face and tell me it’s far too bitter for her.

I guess for this and many similar reasons you won’t get universal agreement on any particular recipe.

I’ve adjusted my recipe to give me IBUs of 24 for an OG of 1042 because I want to explore this question for myself but I’ve been happy with 40 IBUs until now.

 

[An Ankoù]

They do. Often I will like a beer with quite assertive bitterness (IPA) while my wife will screw up her face and tell me it’s far too bitter for her.

I guess for this and many similar reasons you won’t get universal agreement on any particular recipe.

I’ve adjusted my recipe to give me IBUs of 24 for an OG of 1042 because I want to explore this question for myself but I’ve been happy with 40 IBUs until now.

My wife, too. Even what I'd consider a slight bitterness will put her off. Perhaps women perceive bitterness more strongly and perhaps that's why, traditionally, those who drink beer tend not to have favoured bitter. On the other hand, there's a Canadian lass i know who can knock back the bitterest of double and triple IPA's as if there's no tomorrow. So who knows.

 

[peebee]

Could not agree more.
An English traditional bitter - or even paler summer ale - should have a bitterness ratio no higher than 0.6
So max 30 ibu for a 1.050 brew.

Any higher and it just loses its traditional roots

Nonsense - you're heading into mild territory there - or the blandification that's happened to some mainstream brands. ...

QED!

Even the usually factual @Northern_Brewer is losing his head a bit! Oh, and don't forget the Midlands (including the famous beer town of Burton-on-Trent) sandwiched between the North and South regional battle lines (and where I grew up).

 

[Dads_Ale]

They do. Often I will like a beer with quite assertive bitterness (IPA) while my wife will screw up her face and tell me it’s far too bitter for her.

I guess for this and many similar reasons you won’t get universal agreement on any particular recipe.

I’ve adjusted my recipe to give me IBUs of 24 for an OG of 1042 because I want to explore this question for myself but I’ve been happy with 40 IBUs until now.

I have the same. In fact I get a bit worried when she actually likes one of my beers as it must be too sweet LoL
It’s always a bit disconcerting when you let her try the beer and she screws her face up then says ‘it’s ok’ but I liked the last one you did.

 

[trueblue]

With more time to brew, and drink, during the lockdowns I have been looking back at some of the old Graham Wheeler recipes brewing a few old favorites and the odd one I have never brewed. So under the this is one I brewed earlier banner because before this tread started I brewed GWs Tolly Cobbold bitter a low gravity beer with a bitterness of 28. Started to drink last night and to me this is the sort of session bitter I would drink, especially lunchtimes, in the 1970s.

 

[An Ankoù]

I have the same. In fact I get a bit worried when she actually likes one of my beers as it must be too sweet LoL
It’s always a bit disconcerting when you let her try the beer and she screws her face up then says ‘it’s ok’ but I liked the last one you did.

@Dads_Ale , I've got 5 packs of CML BEoIR winging their way across the channel and I'm going to have a go at the recipe you posted in post #72. Could you tell what IBUs you were aiming for as without the alpha acid content of the EKGs (cones or pellets?) I can only guess. I'm guessing between 25 and 28 IBUs.
Many thanks

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I begin to understand. You prefer a malt forward beer and while I'm not looking for thin and dry and watery, like Chiswick Bitter for example I want both malt and bitterness. I wonder too, if people's perceptions of bitterness differ. Truly is it written "One man's Horlicks is another man's Ovaltine!"

AA
Is that quote from the Beverage report?

 

[Dads_Ale]

@Dads_Ale , I've got 5 packs of CML BEoIR winging their way across the channel and I'm going to have a go at the recipe you posted in post #72. Could you tell what IBUs you were aiming for as without the alpha acid content of the EKGs (cones or pellets?) I can only guess. I'm guessing between 25 and 28 IBUs.
Many thanks

I actually didn't aim at any IBU values initially and have only just put the recipe into Beersmith, using 5% AA for the Goldings (Not sure what the originals were but this is the value for my new stock so should be similar). It comes out at 37.1 IBUs, which is listed as a tad high for an ordinary bitter but this is probably offset by the Beoir yeast finishing at about 1014 (Beersmith has the FG as 1010).
I sort of stole this recipe from Craft Beer and Brewing and it was meant to be an ESB brewed to 19l. I kept the ingredients and amounts but simply brewed it to 26l. Their IBU was 35 but with a AA of 5.4% for the Goldings and a slightly lower 0 mins addition.

Oh and they were pellet hops. Also the hops come to 100g so I used one pack up and didn't keep a note of the actual AA% of that packet.

 

[peebee]

... I’ve adjusted my recipe to give me IBUs of 24 for an OG of 1042 because I want to explore this question for myself but I’ve been happy with 40 IBUs until now.

Here go.

Boddington's 1901 X

Also 24 IBU, OG a little higher at 1.045. What I think is a good example of "Mild" starting to be a "style" rather than just an un-aged beer (mild=not-aged). But it would certainly make a good modern "bitter" if you lighten up on the No.4 Invert Sugar.

 

[peebee]

I actually didn't aim at any IBU values initially and have only just put the recipe into Beersmith, using 5% AA for the Goldings (Not sure what the originals were but this is the value for my new stock so should be similar). It comes out at 37.1 IBUs, which is listed as a tad high for an ordinary bitter but this is probably offset by the Beoir yeast finishing at about 1014 (Beersmith has the FG as 1010).
I sort of stole this recipe from Craft Beer and Brewing and it was meant to be an ESB brewed to 19l. I kept the ingredients and amounts but simply brewed it to 26l. Their IBU was 35 but with a AA of 5.4% for the Goldings and a slightly lower 0 mins addition.

Oh and they were pellet hops. Also the hops come to 100g so I used one pack up and didn't keep a note of the actual AA% of that packet.

Hum. I wonder how much this goes on?

Assuming those pelleted hops are not new season (2020), my own Goldings (2019, which wasn't a great year for IBU levels) come out at 3.6% IBUs (I always run my hops through an aging calculator - Beersmith has a built-in one) . That would make the final beer 26.7 IBUs, and well within what I'd deem acceptable!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

QED!

Even the usually factual @Northern_Brewer is losing his head a bit!

"Losing my head" by quoting actual bitterness values direct from the brewery? Hmm...

You can't prove much by quoting Bass, other than to give a textbook example of the blandification of an individual brand in the late 20th century. In 1960 Which? did a survey of all the national and some of the major regional brands, sending them to a lab for analysis. Unfortunately they quote an "index of hop bitterness" which Ron Pattinson thinks is close to IBU but can't be certain about, but assuming it does translate to IBU, then the average in the Which? survey is 32.1 IBU for an average BU:GU of 0.83. There were only 4 out of 25 that were less than 0.73, and only one <0.63 - Hammond's, which had the highest attenuation at >88% so would have had dryness enhancing the bitterness.

And as an aside, Bass in 1960 was 34 IBU for a BU:GU of 0.79.

Brewery	Beer	OG​	ABV	Attn	Bitterness	Bitter:GU
Greenall Whitley	Bitter	1034.4	3.7	82.7%	40	1.16
John Smiths	Best Bitter	1036.8	3.4	71.3%	40	1.09
Courage & Barclay	Bitter	1040.3	3.9	74.6%	40	0.99
Wilson	Bitter	1036.1	3.9	83.1%	35	0.97
Ind Coope	Bitter (BB)	1037.7	3.8	77.7%	36	0.95
Whitbread	Bitter	1037.4	3.6	74.2%	35	0.94
Younger, Wm.	Bitter	1043.9	4.3	75.4%	40	0.91
Thwaites	Bitter	1035.8	3.8	81.6%	32	0.89
Greene King	Bitter	1037.0	4.0	83.1%	33	0.89
Flowers	Keg Bitter	1039.1	3.4	67.3%	33	0.84
Tennant	Queen's Ale	1041.7	4.3	79.4%	35	0.84
Charrington	India Pale Ale	1044.9	4.1	70.5%	37	0.82
Friary Meux	Bitter	1034.9	3.6	79.4%	28	0.80
Truman	Bitter	1037.6	3.9	79.8%	30	0.80
Bass	Red Triangle	1043.1	4.5	80.3%	34	0.79
Ushers	Bitter	1031.9	3.0	72.6%	25	0.78
Tennant	Best Bitter	1038.3	4.2	84.2%	30	0.78
Georges	Bitter	1030.9	3.4	84.6%	24	0.78
Watney	Special Bitter	1043.1	3.7	66.4%	33	0.77
Fremlins	Best Bitter	1044.7	4.6	79.2%	34	0.76
Carlisle State Mgmt	Bitter	1038.2	3.9	78.5%	28	0.73
Ansells	Bitter	1045.3	4.5	76.4%	31	0.68
Worthington	"E"	1041.8	4.6	84.5%	28	0.67
Vaux	Best Bitter	1034.8	3.8	83.9%	22	0.63
Hammond United	Best Bitter	1035.5	4.1	88.6%	20	0.56

 

[Sadfield]

Much talk of tradition. So when did Bitter become a distinct style?

http://zythophile.co.uk/2007/08/23/inside-the-pale/

 

[peebee]

"Losing my head" by quoting actual bitterness values direct from the brewery? Hmm...

(He'll quieten down again in a minute).

 

[Dads_Ale]

Hum. I wonder how much this goes on?

Assuming those pelleted hops are not new season (2020), my own Goldings (2019, which wasn't a great year for IBU levels) come out at 3.6% IBUs (I always run my hops through an aging calculator - Beersmith has a built-in one) . That would make the final beer 26.7 IBUs, and well within what I'd deem acceptable!

Hi Peebee.
I didn't apply any ageing and unfortunately did not note down the season of the hops I used. They were likely to be 2019 but can't be sure.

 

[chthon]

My wife, too. Even what I'd consider a slight bitterness will put her off. Perhaps women perceive bitterness more strongly and perhaps that's why, traditionally, those who drink beer tend not to have favoured bitter. On the other hand, there's a Canadian lass i know who can knock back the bitterest of double and triple IPA's as if there's no tomorrow. So who knows.

For my wife it's a bit different. There seem to be two kinds of bitterness, something like a soft one and something like harsh one. My wife likes IPA's, but for some the bitterness can be too harsh. But e.g. I have brewed barley wine with 60 IBU, imperial stout at 50 IBU, and those she likes. Something like Black Albert too.

I think it has more to do with flameout and dry hops, and the kinds of hops. Remember, a hop tea, made at relatively low temperature can also be bitter, and I think that it is more like this raw bitterness that she doesn't like.

 

[Worf]

@Worf

I agree with this, but the traditional British pub is still very much alive (and I hope shall remain so post-Covid), but it may take a little more local knowledge to unearth them. If you want a guarantee of a more 'traditional' pub, look up where the nearest Samuel Smith's pub. The chain refuses to modernise, rarely serves food, bans mobile phones and live sport, all driven by its mercurial Chairman, Humphrey. There are quite a few of them in London (assuming that is where you visit) and I would recommend them all.

Thanks, I'll put this reference with the passport. Now all we gotta do is have that unknown uncle die so we can inherit the airfare.

 

[Worf]

I have the same. In fact I get a bit worried when she actually likes one of my beers as it must be too sweet LoL
It’s always a bit disconcerting when you let her try the beer and she screws her face up then says ‘it’s ok’ but I liked the last one you did.

That's the dual personality of a loving wife.... Screws up her face in raw truthfulness, then gives a suitable compliment.

 

[peebee]

Much talk of tradition. So when did Bitter become a distinct style?

http://zythophile.co.uk/2007/08/23/inside-the-pale/

Good point! I used to think like that article (Bitter is a 20th century creation) but grubbing about made that idea a lot less clear and I started the Victorian Bitter thread.

My belief now is "Bitter" was never a distinct style, but perhaps a sub-style of "pale ale".

Anyway, I've done quite enough hi-jacking of @An Ankoù's thread. Time I caused trouble elsewhere.

 

[Nicks90]

Wow. Calm down everyone.
Didn't I say an English bitter is a bit like your favourite underwear, everyone's is different.
Personally I dislike a high ibu bitter. Tastes too dry. But I was brought up on blacksheep, which the brewery says has 26 ibu. Even their Rigg welter (which is fabulous beer BTW) is only 32 ibu
I'm also a fan of York brewery, their Guzzler session beer is down at 22, and only rising above 30 for the pale ales.

What you constitute a bitter, a pale ale or even a mild is all very subjective.
I like Yorkshire bitter and this chap puts it perfectly
https://goodfoodgoodbeer.wordpress.com/2013/11/30/heres-to-yorkshire-bitter/
"When I think of Manchester Bitter, I think of a beer lighter in colour than its counterpart from the White Rose county, and perhaps with a clean, smooth body and a sharp, bitter finish. Yorkshire’s Bitter, on the other hand, makes me think of brown; autumnal amber, always served with a tight collar of foam and a nutty, sweeter body underpinning a slightly bready, subtly floral aroma"

So I will stand by what I said, I personally think a bitter should have less than 30ibu and ideally no more than 5%abv. Strong bitter like Riggwelter or theaky XB are not session Yorkshire bitters, but are very Yorkshire in their approach... They really float my boat and are general lowish ibu for their strength. Could drink that stuff on draft till the cows come home :-)