Terry Foster Porter Recipe

[NormanHurst]

I've been reading Terry Foster's illuminating book on Porters and Stouts. One of his Porter recipes - 'Napoleon Brownaparte' - splits the grain bill in even thirds between pale, Crisp Amber and Crisp Brown malt.

The simplicity and symmetry of this are really appealing but it is unlike any other Porter recipe I have read. I now have this nagging feeling it will all go wrong and I won't get enough fermentable sugars.

Anyone brewed it before? Any advice on whether it sounds viable given personal experience of the malts?

 

[Lesinge]

I've been reading Terry Foster's illuminating book on Porters and Stouts. One of his Porter recipes - 'Napoleon Brownaparte' - splits the grain bill in even thirds between pale, Crisp Amber and Crisp Brown malt.

The simplicity and symmetry of this are really appealing but it is unlike any other Porter recipe I have read. I now have this nagging feeling it will all go wrong and I won't get enough fermentable sugars.

Anyone brewed it before? Any advice on whether it sounds viable given personal experience of the malts?

What are the amounts?

 

[foxy]

Could it be this one?
1822 Porter
(5 gal/19 L, all-grain)
OG = 1.055 FG = 1.015
SRM = 64 IBU = 38

Ingredients
3.0 lbs. (1.4 kg) 2-row Maris Otter pale malt (2.5 °L)
3.0 lbs. (1.4 kg) Muntons amber malt (40 °L)
3.0 lbs. (1.4 kg) Crisp brown malt (38 °L)
8.5 AAU East Kent Goldings hops (bittering) (1.4 oz./39 g of 6% AA)
1 oz. (28 g) East Kent Goldings hops (flavor, after 75 minutes boiling)
1 oz. (28 g) East Kent Goldings hops (flavor, at end of boil)
Wyeast 1028 (London Ale) yeast
0.5 cup cane sugar for priming

 

[NormanHurst]

It is very similar but not identical... The version in the edition I have is:

5 gallon / 19L All Grain
3.75 lbs. (1.7 kg) 2-row pale malt (3°L)
3.75 lbs. (1.7 kg) Crisp amber malt (29°L)
3.75 lbs. (1.7 kg) Crisp brown malt (65 °L)
8.5 AAU East Kent Goldings hops (bittering) (1.5oz./43g of 6
5% AA)
Wyeast 1098 (British Ale) yeast or White Labs 006 Bedford

OG 1052
FG 1016
ABV 4.6%
IBU 28

 

[Zephyr259]

I've never brewed to those ratios but I recall the guys on the Experimental Brewing podcast (I think) saying they'd done it at some point and it's a terrible idea, tastes bad and as you expect there's not enough enzymes to get good conversion in the mash.

Would be interested to hear how it turns out if you go for it. Good candidate for a small batch experiment.

 

[Lesinge]

I've never brewed to those ratios but I recall the guys on the Experimental Brewing podcast (I think) saying they'd done it at some point and it's a terrible idea, tastes bad and as you expect there's not enough enzymes to get good conversion in the mash.

Would be interested to hear how it turns out if you go for it. Good candidate for a small batch experiment.

Interesting as I intended to do that 1822 porter but now that you mention it there is very little base malt and lots of highly kilned malt...um...maybe a rethink...

I suspect that it may have worked when Brown malt had diastatic power.

 

[foxy]

Interesting as I intended to do that 1822 porter but now that you mention it there is very little base malt and lots of highly kilned malt...um...maybe a rethink...

I suspect that it may have worked when Brown malt had diastatic power.

I would still have a crack at it brown and amber never really had diastatic power to the degree of pale malt, the base pale malt will help convert the amber and brown malt as they can't do it on their own.

Making Brown Malt At Home
The following is based on directions given in “Old British Beers and How to Make Them” (Dr. John Harrison, 1991).

Take a large cookie sheet, line it with aluminum foil and cover with two-row pale malt to a depth of about 1/2 inch (a bit over 1 cm). Place the malt in a pre-heated oven at 200–220 °F (93–104 °C) for 40–45 minutes, to ensure it is evenly heated. Raise the oven temperature to 300 °F
(148 °C) and hold for 60-70 minutes to reach the amber malt stage. Remove a few grains for later testing, then raise the oven temperature to 350 °F (177 °C) for 30-40 minutes to obtain brown malt. Remove the cookie sheet from the oven, and allow the malt to cool before use.

You may need to adjust these times according to your own oven’s characteristics; do not go to higher temperatures, as above 400 °F (204 °C) the malt may char badly.

To test the malts, take some of the starting pale malt, some of the amber malt, and some of the brown malt, and slice them in two across the center. Look at the center of each grain: the pale malt should appear white, the amber slightly more brown than the pale, and the brown should be a definite light brown, or khaki color. Remember that brown malt produced in this way cannot be mashed alone; it has no starch-converting enzymes of its own, and must be mixed with pale malt before mashing.

 

[Lesinge]

I would still have a crack at it brown and amber never really had diastatic power to the degree of pale malt, the base pale malt will help convert the amber and brown malt as they can't do it on their own.

Making Brown Malt At Home
The following is based on directions given in “Old British Beers and How to Make Them” (Dr. John Harrison, 1991).

Take a large cookie sheet, line it with aluminum foil and cover with two-row pale malt to a depth of about 1/2 inch (a bit over 1 cm). Place the malt in a pre-heated oven at 200–220 °F (93–104 °C) for 40–45 minutes, to ensure it is evenly heated. Raise the oven temperature to 300 °F
(148 °C) and hold for 60-70 minutes to reach the amber malt stage. Remove a few grains for later testing, then raise the oven temperature to 350 °F (177 °C) for 30-40 minutes to obtain brown malt. Remove the cookie sheet from the oven, and allow the malt to cool before use.

You may need to adjust these times according to your own oven’s characteristics; do not go to higher temperatures, as above 400 °F (204 °C) the malt may char badly.

To test the malts, take some of the starting pale malt, some of the amber malt, and some of the brown malt, and slice them in two across the center. Look at the center of each grain: the pale malt should appear white, the amber slightly more brown than the pale, and the brown should be a definite light brown, or khaki color. Remember that brown malt produced in this way cannot be mashed alone; it has no starch-converting enzymes of its own, and must be mixed with pale malt before mashing.

Thanks - however, for the purposes of the experiment I am doing (testing Chevalier v Maris Otter) I think the time to do the creation of Brown malt (rather than use the bought stuff I have) will not be worth the outcomes required if that makes sense. I still have the creation of Invert Sugar on my list to do next! Therefore I will dial back the brown and Amber malts and up the base malt - which to be fair will help me with my actual experiment more! However, sometime down the line I will experiment with making these malts.

 

[Hanglow]

I would definitely use a base malt with a lot more diastatic power than a standard british pale ale malt if it only accounts for 1/3 of the entire malt bill. Or add the correct enzymes to do the job.

A continental pils malt tends to have more, or even replace a bit of the base malt with distillers malt.

I've gone to about 30% amber/brown/black in old porter recipes with 70% pale malt if you do want to reduce it.

 

[NormanHurst]

Thanks for all the input here. I've gone back to the drawing board for this brew. Just feels too risky and when you only brew once every 3 weeks or so I dont want to screw one up totally when the end result was predictable. Think I will dial back the amber and brown, up the base and throw in a bit of chocolate and crystal.

 

[matt76]

Purely or of curiosity I just threw some numbers into BF, 1/3 each Golden Promise, Brown make and Amber malt...

It said DP was 30 and minimum needed is also 30. I don't have enough experience in this area to know if that's anything like a good idea though.

But then I tried 50% GP and 25% each Brown and Amber, for which BF returned a DP of 40 - that's got to work surely?

Will have to add the book to my list - I do like a porter and they seem to work for me (I suspect my water here suits darker styles) so I'd be keen to explore the style more.

 

[peebee]

Thanks for all the input here. I've gone back to the drawing board for this brew. Just feels too risky and when you only brew once every 3 weeks or so I dont want to screw one up totally when the end result was predictable. Think I will dial back the amber and brown, up the base and throw in a bit of chocolate and crystal.

What'd-yer-know, I've just posted something on just this subject >here<.

 

[peebee]

I've never brewed to those ratios but I recall the guys on the Experimental Brewing podcast (I think) saying they'd done it at some point and it's a terrible idea, tastes bad and as you expect there's not enough enzymes to get good conversion in the mash. …

I think they're are dead right. "Terrible idea"! But then I think Terry Foster's book on Porter is best described as "illuminating" when tossed on a fire! Unfortunately I do own the wretched thing.

Using Simpson's "Imperial Malt" (sort of half way between Amber Malt and Light Amber Malt) in place of Amber Malt will help the conversion issue (Imperial Malt is fully diastatic) and shift a portion of brown malt to be pale malt might help some more. I can't see "symmetry" (of ingredients) helping one bit in this case.

 

[Lesinge]

I think they're are dead right. "Terrible idea"! But then I think Terry Foster's book on Porter is best described as "illuminating" when tossed on a fire! Unfortunately I do own the wretched thing.

Using Simpson's "Imperial Malt" (sort of half way between Amber Malt and Light Amber Malt) in place of Amber Malt will help the conversion issue (Imperial Malt is fully diastatic) and shift a portion of brown malt to be pale malt might help some more. I can't see "symmetry" (of ingredients) helping one bit in this case.

I don't know why I just walked towards this without thinking until it was pointed out - I nearly made not one but two of theses with Chevalier and MO malts - what a waste that would have been! I have spent loads of time reading about Malts and beers from the Victorian era but it didn't ring any alarms that I was proposing to use modern Brown malt!

 

[peebee]

I don't know why I just walked towards this without thinking until it was pointed out - I nearly made not one but two of theses with Chevalier and MO malts - what a waste that would have been! I have spent loads of time reading about Malts and beers from the Victorian era but it didn't ring any alarms that I was proposing to use modern Brown malt!

Your comments don't match with my post you quoted! Certainly confused me!

But: By the Victorian era they were using indirect heat to kiln malt (traditional brown malt used direct heat) so you would have been on the right track using modern brown malt (mixed with pale, black and perhaps amber malts). MO malt wouldn't have been available (until 1960s) but it's precursors would have been, and we can't get them so MO is fine. Chevallier barley is quite different from MO and its precursors, and accounted for most of the barley malted in Victorian times and would be a fine choice (I'm a recent convert to Chevallier, and prefer it many times over to MO).

 

[matt76]

I think they're are dead right. "Terrible idea"! But then I think Terry Foster's book on Porter is best described as "illuminating" when tossed on a fire! Unfortunately I do own the wretched thing.

Useful to know, I had put it on my Xmas list!

But I do have a question for you @peebee -

We've both commented on a couple of porter-related threads recently. I can't claim it's a style I've grown up with but I do like it, and it seems to work for me.

So where do you suggest one turns to look for recipes to explore this not as popular as it should be style more?

E.g. Fuller's London Porter is a really tasty beer, but not the only example. The GH recipe is really good, as is Josh Weikert's on Craft Beer & Brewing (even if he's American! But I can certainly recommend chocolate rye malt).

I get that it's a historical style, but likewise times change and styles and ingredients evolve.

Do you have any particular recommendations?

 

[peebee]

But I do have a question for you @peebee - …

Okay! Porter isn't a "style" any of us grew up with! It died out early in 20th century. Stout became the "new" porter although it's alcohol strength had decayed to considerably less than porters of the 19th century (stout being a strong porter). So in the 70-80s there was just Guinness (in bottles - the draught stuff had already died out). And any brewing literature at the time might of said porter was impossible to recreate because no-one knew what it really was.

Fortunately the situation wasn't as dire as that.

I most certainly am not a historian. I only read what other beer historians write and adapt what I want to drink from that. Hopefully if I do make statements about the likes of making porter (etc.) I make it clear I'm not dictating historical fact (the earlier link to my recreation of "historic" brown malt should be evidence of that). So what really winds me up is people writing up on porter as if what they write has historical credence, yet bears no resemblance to what true historians write up. Or take snapshots of what English porter was in the early 20th century and hold this up without any further research as a typical example of "English Porter" (I refer to the BJCP, and it isn't just porter).

I'm not ranting on this subject at Americans generally, America has a history of porter almost as old as the UK, but those American examples above (TF's book and the BJCP) are grand examples of the trite I am ranting about, and unfortunately it is having a huge influence on up and coming brewers over here.

Right, I can't see for all the steam I'm generating now! For historical background Ron Pattinson and Martyn Cornell are a good start, but be prepared to search about a bit (they are both prolific writers!). For historic recipes there's Durden Park Beer Club and Edd Mather (again, you'll have to search for specifically porter, or stout, and be prepared to adapt the recipes from the awkward formats, or lack of information). And for modern recipes there is the host of sources, just don't get sucked in by some of the historical nonsense you come across (think of the recipes as modern strong dark beers and don't read too much into the "porter" label, but there's nowt wrong with calling it "porter" if you must).

 

[matt76]

Thanks @peebee for sharing your thoughts, I will check out the links

 

[peebee]

Thanks @peebee for sharing your thoughts, I will check out the links

I have perhaps been a bit mean to Terry Foster's book. I dug my copy out to judge why I had such a negative opinion of it.

It was published way back in 1992 (when I would have still believed "porter" was lost forever, and stout was an entirely different beer) and it was for an American audience who hadn't by that time built their dominant influence on the UK (World?) home-brew scene. So he won't have had the more recent influences of Porter history "stars" like Ron Pattinson and Martyn Cornell and any useful snippets they had dug up. And none of his recipes pap on about "six-row barley" of "Munich Malt" like I thought they did (none have chocolate, coffee or raspberries in either!).

So, for my slur aimed at Terry Foster, I apologise.




I do despise the current American dominance of the UK home-brew scene. But the UK scene did need the kick up the pants to get us out of a long slumber.

EDIT: Hang on! I've picked up the wrong book! "Porter and Stouts", published 2014. THAT'S what I was remembering! Utter trite! I take back my apology!

 

[peebee]

Another useful book: "Stout and Porter", 2003, CAMRA Homebrew Classics.

It's been a good exercise this ... revisiting all my old "Porter" references.