Whitbread's London Porter (Durden Park)

[Zephyr259]

I've made the Simonds bitter (#7) several times, and like it. I also made Mild Beer 1836 (#6) Rigden, Faversham and a High Gravity mild 1844,(#29) Tamar. These two were just OK. I have several others page marked but haven't gotten around to actually making them. There are quite a few recipes in the book that have rather high OG. I'm not into high octane; I like to be able to enjoy a few glasses !

Thanks for sharing, a lot of the recipes read very similar which makes it a tricky book to parse out just by reading. As you say, there's not many OGs below 1.060, I wonder if back then the FGs were a lot higher than we get, that rings a bell from what I've read on Ron Pattinson's blog, and the DP book only lists OG and nothing else.

@Slid Thanks for sharing, I've still been meaning to do a partigyle sometime, I can speed it up a bit by boiling the smaller batch in my sparge heater but then I need to work out how to cool that without blocking things. I figure my best bet is to get the smaller beer boiling first so that once it's chilled I can just drain the strong beer into the GF and use it's filter and chiller.

 

[Zephyr259]

Finished up a few points high at 1.017 for a nice round 6%. Cold crashing now and will probably bottle on Monday. Sample tasted ok, very bitter and obviously very green. Should be a good beer once it's conditioned.

 

[An Ankoù]

Nice to hear from someone else who's brewed one of DP's beers, it's fairly unusual from a modern perspective that I'm glad it seems to be well liked. Have you brewed any other of their beers?

I love the DP recipes even the more unlikey come out tops. For example recipe #1 Amber Small Beer, Cobb and Co has so much Amber it tastes really odd at first, but let it mature and it's gorgeous. This is a session beer that actually makes you thirstier as you drink it.
Just scaling up the recipe #97 for Whitbread's London Porter (1850). That's next on the list to be done after the Pacific Pilsner (not DPBC) and it'll be in the fermenter about mid week if all goes well.

 

[Zephyr259]

I love the DP recipes even the more unlikey come out tops. For example recipe #1 Amber Small Beer, Cobb and Co has so much Amber it tastes really odd at first, but let it mature and it's gorgeous. This is a session beer that actually makes you thirstier as you drink it.
Just scaling up the recipe #97 for Whitbread's London Porter (1850). That's next on the list to be done after the Pacific Pilsner (not DPBC) and it'll be in the fermenter about mid week if all goes well.

The small amber beer has looked interesting, one I'm very curious about is Maclay's Oatmalt Stout (#102), Ron Pattinson's blog has other versions with only about 30% oat malt rather than 70%.

 

[An Ankoù]

The small amber beer has looked interesting, one I'm very curious about is Maclay's Oatmalt Stout (#102), Ron Pattinson's blog has other versions with only about 30% oat malt rather than 70%.

I've done it. Bottled in November and at my last taste, it had carbonated well, tastes good, but the head doesn't last for more than about 90 seconds. Maybe it's an ageing thing. I'm going to dig a bottle out and I'll report back.
Report: Yes, it's lovely and refreshing, very fizzy, but not overcarbonated. Poured a nice creamy head, which, now, less than two minutes has completely disappeared. I think it's something to do with the oils in the oats. I made 20 litres and I've got about 17 or 18 bottles left. I'm enjoying it, but wouldn't make it again. BUT go for it. Yours might hold the head better.
Edit: Having said that, I think I will make it again but with 50% oats and 20% flaked wheat to promote the head and provide a bit more graininess. Yes. I can feel a recipe coming on.

 

[Zephyr259]

I've done it. Bottled in November and at my last taste, it had carbonated well, tastes good, but the head doesn't last for more than about 90 seconds. Maybe it's an ageing thing. I'm going to dig a bottle out and I'll report back.
Report: Yes, it's lovely and refreshing, very fizzy, but not overcarbonated. Poured a nice creamy head, which, now, less than two minutes has completely disappeared. I think it's something to do with the oils in the oats. I made 20 litres and I've got about 17 or 18 bottles left. I'm enjoying it, but wouldn't make it again. BUT go for it. Yours might hold the head better.
Edit: Having said that, I think I will make it again but with 50% oats and 20% flaked wheat to promote the head and provide a bit more graininess. Yes. I can feel a recipe coming on.

Yeah, I did some reading about using oats and your comment about the oils is what they agreed on, too many oils mean there really bad head retention.

Is there's a decent flavour difference that makes using the oats worth it?

 

[An Ankoù]

Yeah, I did some reading about using oats and your comment about the oils is what they agreed on, too many oils mean there really bad head retention.

Is there's a decent flavour difference that makes using the oats worth it?

It is different, with a different mouthfeel, too. I liked the flavour, but wanted it grainier, which I why I'm thinking about flaked wheat. I think a small batch is worth trying if you're geared up for stove-top, sample batches.

 

[Zephyr259]

It is different, with a different mouthfeel, too. I liked the flavour, but wanted it grainier, which I why I'm thinking about flaked wheat. I think a small batch is worth trying if you're geared up for stove-top, sample batches.

Cool, I keep flaked barley in stock over wheat but that should work too. Smallest I can easily do is a 10L batch, I can go smaller but chilling is a hassle.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I suspect I'm more sensitive than most, but I've found that commercial beers with a reasonable % of oats can come across very porridgey when freshly brewed, but it conditions out after a few weeks.

 

[An Ankoù]

Cool, I keep flaked barley in stock over wheat but that should work too. Smallest I can easily do is a 10L batch, I can go smaller but chilling is a hassle.

Sounds Ideal. I do 12 L because that's the size of my small fermenters.

 

[phillc]

As I understand it ( and I might have misunderstood it) brown malt was made by insertingt firebands intro a mass of malt so that some of it burnt and some of it remained diastatic. Not too difficult to copy, I should think.

This sounds a little like the Austrian/Nordic/Baltic steinbier (stone beer) farmhouse tradition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steinbier
"Due to the contact of the glowing, hot stones—often heated directly in the fire—with the malt, the resulting beer has a taste of caramel....."

If you look at some of the pictures on this blog post, they show the grains sticking to the rocks after they've cooled and been removed from the wort.

I wonder if the firebrand method developed from an earlier hot rock based process.

 

[PhilBrew]

As I understand it ( and I might have misunderstood it) brown malt was made by insertingt firebands intro a mass of malt so that some of it burnt and some of it remained diastatic. Not too difficult to copy, I should think.

... interesting to find out about stenbier @phillc, thanks for that ... but I don't think @An Ankoù's description of the production process for brown malt is quite right ... there's a review of the various historic texts and summary of the techniques used at various stages in history over on that thread on JBK (link) lots of variations on the theme of kilning with different fuel sources, but no "plunging" involved as far as I can see

Cheers, PhilB

 

[peebee]

...
but no "plunging" involved as far as I can see

I think the plunging firebrands were falling from the roof of a burning down malt house? :tinhat:

I've got in ingredients to attempt the "1850" porter this year, if this v. thing leaves me intact. No attempting to emulate "diastatic brown malt" for this one like for the 1750 recipe. It will be a "London Neoporter" in Martyn Cornell's book (see my earlier post), i.e. "modern" non-diastatic brown malt like we can buy. No crystal either, that was only to emulate diastatic malt which was kilned from damp with intense heat so some stewing (which will create crystal malt) must have occurred. No smoke either (all coke fired by that time).

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi @peebee

Have you decided what approach you will be taking to aging your porter? I ask because I find it really interesting how these discussions about old time porters will frequently spiral around these topics of old grain varieties and maltster's different preparation processes for malts ... but considering the fact that part of the "USP" of porter was that it a was a brewery (bulk) conditioned beer, there is rarely any great discussion on these threads on the homebrewing forums around conditioning techniques. Which is strange really, imagine if most lager brewing threads just never discussed how to go about lagering ... and that's especially intriguing when a significant component of the flavours in those beers would have been introduced through the bulk maturation processes. As the late great Graham Wheeler once put it (over there (link)) ...

I would suggest that it would be difficult to emulate the full character of old-time porter without a pediococcus infection alongside the brettanomyces [claussenii].

Cheers, PhilB

 

[F00b4r]

Pedio = ropey beer! Pictures if you do try it, before it conditions out

 

[peebee]

Have you decided what approach you will be taking to aging your porter? ...

Is there a choice? My last one made 40L and was aged in two 20L Corny kegs for 4 months and more. The addition of Brett looks sound, but I'll not get around to it for a year or more. There isn't any hope of me ageing it in enormous quantities should it make a difference.

The 19th century did see young (mild) porter available to mix, in whatever proportion you fancied, or could afford, with aged (stale) porter. Might be fun to mess with, but more likely you just brew it to your preference.

On another site (the "precursor" to this one) I did write up quite a lot on the "holistic" approach to designing a porter - dragging in what you can to picture what you think a porter was like, and brewing that. No-one can prove you wrong 'cos what can you use to compare it to? At the same time you can't claim it's right, but you'll probably be enjoying it.

One thing you can be sure of, it'll be closer than some of the fizzy commercial "porters" you get these days that are barely a month old with all-sorts (chocolate nibs, coffee, old dishcloth ...) soaked in them.

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi @F00b4r

Pedio = ropey beer! Pictures if you do try it, before it conditions out

... I don't think you followed the link in my previous post ... as Graham explained over there ...

Pediococcus encapsulates itself in a slimy polysaccharide that manifests itself as ropiness in beers that have an acute infection of said bacterium. A pediococcus infection was inevitable in old-time beers and must have been a major part of their character ... Brettanomyces claussenii, probably in common with other breeds of brett., eats long-chain sugars including the slime produced by pediococcus. Therefore the claussenii protected beers from ropiness and from an unsavoury surface peliicle during long-term storage. It probably kept the pediococcus in check, as the encapsulation is probably part of the bacterium's protection mechanism; it mellowed and reduced the acidity produced by pediococcus, produced fruity esters from the acids, and dried out the beer. It seems unlikely that Britain would have become famous for, or even capable of producing, its long-term aged beers, without them turning into a cask of slime, if it were not for the help given by brettanomyces.​

Cheers, PhilB

 

[Zephyr259]

Pedio = ropey beer! Pictures if you do try it, before it conditions out

Here's a pedio infection I had previously, post #8.

Was an amusing infection since that was the clean half of a batch, the other half got a whole host of bugs added and is really needing to be bottled about now.

The porter got bottled yesterday, a nice round 6% and I got 31 x 330ml bottles out of it. Primed to 2 vols where I like my dark beers. If it's a good one I might try a future batch with some brett c, I have an old ale hidden in the back of the brewing cupboard which has been ageing for about 18 months on brett C. Need to dig it out and try it again, last sample didn't taste so good, kinda blue cheese / ripe socks rather than the fruity and dry character I was hoping for, but that was a year ago.

 

[Zephyr259]

I love the DP recipes even the more unlikey come out tops. For example recipe #1 Amber Small Beer, Cobb and Co has so much Amber it tastes really odd at first, but let it mature and it's gorgeous. This is a session beer that actually makes you thirstier as you drink it.
Just scaling up the recipe #97 for Whitbread's London Porter (1850). That's next on the list to be done after the Pacific Pilsner (not DPBC) and it'll be in the fermenter about mid week if all goes well.

I just ran the numbers on #1 Amber Small Beer, at 1.042 OG the 0.7 oz per gallon becomes 50g in a 10L batch and that works out at 51 IBU (this includes a 2L DV of my system). Does this sound right, as with most of the DP recipes, it's really bitter.

 

[An Ankoù]

I just ran the numbers on #1 Amber Small Beer, at 1.042 OG the 0.7 oz per gallon becomes 50g in a 10L batch and that works out at 51 IBU (this includes a 2L DV of my system). Does this sound right, as with most of the DP recipes, it's really bitter.

Just looking back through my notes and I see that I used fuggles to 35 IBUs. Haven't reworked the figures to see how I arrived at that, but definitely didn't go as high as 51. The amount of amber malt gives a bitterness of its own. I should say that this definitely mellows down with age.